From Jihad to Jesus A Radical Muslim Converts to Christianity ft Tomas Samuel

why would radical salafi Muslim become follower of Jesus most of the people rejected me in Egypt the people used to know mean Our Guest today is Thomas SEL new friend of mine who's written book just coming out about his journey so to speak that we're going to get into today called it's your time to follow me people are full of hatred received 359 direct death threat it cost me lot however Thomas such treat to talk with you again thanks for coming on the show and your courage and willingness to share your story thank you sir I'm very honored to be with you today it's blessing and I'm very happy to be with your audience and pray that God will use it for his glory well let's start in our conversation where you start in the book is your childhood growing up in Egypt what was your family like what are some of your earliest memories actually this is fantastic special story in my opinion because my family was Radical or still actually is radical Muslims because they are still radical Muslims and they they grow me up in the in Egypt in the idea of or in the path of salafism because we believe that salafism is path and the for people who may not understand the word salafi salafi are the group of people who believe in Quran the book of Muslims and Sunnah the words of Muhammad the prophet of Islam with the prospective of the ancestors of the nation of the Islamic nation in another way we say alquran the Quran andah with the perspective or the world view view of Muhammad's Companions and with with the most radical foundational fundamental perspective it's very important sh to say that it's fundamental not extremist this is very important Point people don't understand sometimes big difference between saying extreme extreme is something out of the line right when you're say this is Extreme like there is middle point there is path and you go extreme out of the path no we are not the extreme we are the fundamentalists we are the the core we are the followers of Quran and Sunnah so in my opinion salafism is the radical foundational fundamental Islam in in the Muslim world so they grow me up they they grow me up on these teachings they grow me up with these values started to memorize the Quran since was young remember well my mom used to tell me this very important words for me because it meant lot to me my mom used to look at me after her prayer or when she was about to pray and she says may see you leader of Islam coming back with Victory or Dead's body coming back as martyr do imagine my mom is saying that she she she wants to see that am giving my life to God to witness for Islam because this is the highest moral we can achieve in Islam to give your life to God to be witness for him by being martyr for for for the Islamic or Nation or and my mom used to to to teach me how to pray how to from since was young and my dad as well but my mom was the focus because she's very religious my mom is very religious person and she and my uncle as well my uncle is Imam so was the the IM of the mosque and he they grow me up with the idea that should be the next Imam and the next leader in in this is the coming generation and so started to memorize the Quran since was think six or seven till 9 years old was start to to be teaching and learning how to teach and how to lead the prayer was learning how to run circle circle study we have Circle studies so much in the mosqu FI when was just 13 was growing so fast in this path to to be the coming leader so this is what remember the most that my dream was to give my life to God to to to to do whatever it takes to be the coming leader who will give his life and die for hisl so from your earliest memories to serve God in some capacity was to sacrifice your life in some form of jihad your mom instilled that in you you desired that sought that thought about that prayed about that was that really your greatest desire grownup is that fair to say yes it was my greatest desire nothing better than this and have never seen something higher than dying for God wow now do you have brothers and sisters were you where would you fit within that tell me little bit more about your family and so far as your comfortable sharing grow up with mom and two brothers who are younger much younger than me so they didn't attend these early days what talk about because I'm older with 13 years and 11 years than my brother so I'm the the older among them and grow up with two aunts so had three moms at home two aunts and one mom and had my dad and uncle we lived in what we call in Egypt family house you know it's not only small family the big family all living together okay so presumably your mom wasn't the first Muslim in your lineage how far back does your family go in the Islamic tradition well for the Islamic tradition we grow up this was very important point that we grow up with the idea that we are from the prophet house because came from it's the brother of Ali the fourth khif of Islam and the cousin of Muhammad so used to to this is something that has been planted in our heart since we were young like you are from the prophet house and this is they used to tell us two things this is an owner and duty it's an owner because God chose you to be from the prophet house but it's duty that you have to be role model for all Muslims so this is so unique wow that was really built into you in different ways now did you have Christians in your life did you have Jews in your life what were some of those relationships like and how did your salfy worldview inform them actually we don't have Jews in our life because in Egypt there are very few number of Jews living and they are always not saying that they are Jews so in our area we have no Jews it's very rare to find Jews in Egypt okay so mostly we have Christians and used to have Christians Christian neighbors and we used to have them in in in our family building like we in the building we used to leave we used to have some Christian neighbors and remember that they were always afraid of me because was so strict Muslim so was always looking at them like you are you are not one of us you know okay remember remember one day one of the very initial stories in my life we rented house for Christian so he came to pay the rent to our family so have just watched movie on on TV as kid you know so watched Salah movie The Warrior of Islam so it's it's it's not good movie for kids by the way but watched it this is very very plus 18 so it's full of blood and killing and so on anyway but the thing is when he came Salah was fighting with the Christians with the Crusade so he was saying once he came told him can ask you question because they were still inside everyone so told him can ask you question he said yes said why you hate us he said what don't hate you why should hate you said yeah you you Christians hate all of the Muslims you hate us and you want us to be like you and this is what the Quran is saying and you wanted to fill Salah so he said my son this is movie we don't we love you we don't want to do anything and my mom came out and she said no no he's he's kid he doesn't know what he's saying but then after he left he looked at me and she said yeah they hate us they don't want us and they want us to be like them this is what the Quran is saying that Jews and Christians will never accept you until you are one of them so grow up with hatred actually to Christians and Jews the most because believe that they want to turn all of us to Christian and Jews and they are just tricking us actually how common is this belief within Egypt about Christians and Jews whether you think it's soloy or from another sect of Islam or even in other Muslim countries throughout the world were you kind of minority the elite or is this little bit more of common Viewpoint among Muslim nations today no think it's common view because if you look around you will see how how much how much there is hate of anti-Semitism for example and people they have they have this hatred since the young age remember my teacher in school and it was the Christians are minority as most of the time and it was Muslim school and once the Christians go out in the religion in the religion lecture they go out to attend outside another lecture for Christians the teacher used to look at us and said you know what these Christians don't clean themselves here you know they are they are dirty they are not un clean people so think most of the the Muslims will have this perspective that's why it's very popular some stuff is very popular in Egypt like for example Christians are unclean Christians are Unfaithful they kiss each other in the church on the night of the Christmas when they turn off the lights because in the chest they turn off the light for moment to say that the new light Jesus Christ has come to the world so they say no they turn off the light so they can kiss each other and we grow up with these ideas you know and imagine how how we see people when you have this in your back mind how you see your friends how you relate to your neighbors and you to your PE to the people Christian and and and others around you this is so mean in very mean way so there's two historical events that think really help unpack your worldview one was in the early 2000s the death of Hamas leader what happened and how did that affect you how old were you at that point by the way if you recall think was teenager in that time and remember that was in my early teenager years and remember that we were sitting and suddenly we he cries and everyone was my aunt was like kind of crying out and it was the announcement of the death of Ahmed Yim the leader of Hamas and that he was shooted with rocket and this was funeral in our house my aunt to cry and my mom was crying and they were just insulting Jews and they saying that I'm cursing them all the curses you can imagine that should be poured on the Jews and how how awful they are and how they killed very unique important leader for us and we used to have songs Islamic songs not normal songs Islamic songs about that that they killed the paralyzed man because he was scary for them and they could not do anything except killing him and this was important for me because felt like will be the coming leader will not stay silent am revolutionary guy by Nature I'm little bit in that character and don't like to stay silent it's not me should do something about it you know so this is what decided on that day that will be the coming leader and will be the coming guy who will give his life to to to die for for God you know it's interesting lot of people think if we can kill the leader in Hamas or some radical Islamic sect this will scare people away but it had the opposite effect on you and said want to be part of this and want to die for the cause that's very very interesting response now you also talk about 911 and what you remember during that and how it affected you so how old were you and how did that affect you still was was older and actually remember very well because was in my room remember this very well was in my room and heard the the the word allahar Allah abbar you know this very famous screaming that Muslims do when they when they do anything positive or big allahar and it was my old family was watching TV and they watched that they destroyed the towers and they were so proud at last they destroyed their economy they destroyed the Americans it's it was like victory for them it was exactly like Victory and they were just bowing down for God with thanks to the Lord that he helped them to Allah that he helped them to destroy the nation and he he is Redeeming the Islamic and and it was it's the dream ofafa brother that's the problem it's the dream ofafa they don't even see Egypt as as country they see Egypt as just state of the Islamic States because the Islamic state is just some countries together that's the Islamic history so they don't believe in Egypt as country they don't believe in Iraq as country they don't believe in Syria as country but they are all part from Islamic State that should come back one day if we want that or not it will come back this is how they think now you describe shifting from wanting this created desire to die as martyr but it didn't work out for you what happened that prevented you from doing so and then what was the shift that came after that the biggest problem happened when 2003 America attacked Iraq in 2002 2003 around that time and they were attacking for us the best and the most one of the most actually important places after Palestine and Mecca and Medina it's Iraq it's the state because it used to be capital of the Islamic for long time so for us it was like not one more country not one more we are fed up with that it's enough not more so for me used to grow up with grew up with this Islamic songs about Jihad all the time about Jihad in Kosovo in shishan in Bosnia in the Balkan area in in this this what we grow up with in the time that people was hiding sorry to say was hiding porno cities in their teenage time to watch we were hiding me and my group we were hiding Jad cities to watch Jihad people doing the fights really we were just enjoying that and we watch them in the fight and how they die and we imagine that they die smiling for God and so when they did that decided that this is enough want to go to Jihad and for this time I'm not just dreaming or not just wish it's serious so went upstairs to one of our neighbors who was connected so much to the Jihadi in in Egypt and we know him personally so asked him told him please want to to go to Jihad it's it's enough he looked at me with very open eyes and he said last was waiting for this moment felt like my God it's time for me to die for god wow because actually was scared will tell you something that have never shared before was scared was very scared you know what I'm scared of I'm scared of God because God will everyone will pass by according to the Islamic religion everyone will pass by it even if you will not enter it you will pass by it this is what the Quran is saying every one of you has passed has to pass by it this was on on your God decision it's must let's say it's must to pass by so was afraid to pass by hell was afraid wanted to avoid this with my life wanted really to avoid this want to go to paradise was so scared of hell and if the pper to to to pass by to to avoid hell and go to paradise is to die for God good and well this is easy let me die for him and by the way many of the salafi people are just scared but people don't know that they are just scared very scared because God is very scary in Islam very scary how many verses that are very strong and and very harsh very scary the toes make you frighten all the time it's it's very hard so after told him that told me okay just wait for phone call and Was preparing myself preparing my bag hiding it under my bed you know like I'm going to Jihad that's end of the story until received the phone call was so glad seeing his number on the phone over the phone but received the bad news he said no you will not go because they the people you cannot go for me this was kind of an electric shock coming from Heavens on my head it was like don't know don't have the words to describe how painful how awful felt and how much felt rejected by God someone would say yeah but this is not reason to be rejected by God you know this is you wanted to go to Jad and didn't work yeah but don't you know that Muslim Jihadi are called by name to die for God the people who die for God are called by name in Islam the people who die for God are very special in Islam so why I'm not special what did that did not include me with the special people used to pray every day lot more than the the the main five prayers prayed all the Sunnah prayers all the night prayers memorize the Quran do everything possible to be good Muslim and leading the prayer started after that to leave the prayer in the MOs and to to be teaching and and and helping Muslims and doing everything possible so why on Earth I'm not chosen this for me was big question Mar started to retreat little bit from being with groups and with people was so frustrated so was not trying to to be involved with many people just go to pray and come back after while started even to disappear little bit from the which is so forbidden for us as salafy people we should pray in the mosque men should pray in the mosque but was so sick in my soul can say that and one of my leaders started to miss me so he started to say like where is the guy and he asked and he knew about that was going to Jihad and it didn't work so he called me and he asked it to meet me and his first question why you are angry why you are sad told him why because was was not accepted God didn't let me die for him and then this man said prophecy believe it's today that it was prophecy like biy he said maybe God wants you to live said what do you mean he said guy like you should not die guy like you saw him talking saw him preaching saw him praying you should be the guy who is reach reaching out for his brothers in Islam reach out for people and bring them to become Muslims to become radical Muslims to become salafi Muslims and this is your goal this is your your point of growing and starting up and when you speak many will die because you will bring to Islam Jihadi people you will bring to Islam preachers you will bring to Islam students you will bring to salafism lot of Manpower like the idea that's good that's very good idea so decided that will be the you know we call it so the the guy who is spreading out or reaching out for Muslims so was was my God like fire in dry Rass Thomas let me jump in here for second because want to ask you some questions about this shift in your life but just want to point out to people when you said you were going to share something you hadn't shared before and this is at the moment you thought you're going to get called for Jihad literally thought you were going to say Sean got to confess was afraid to die was afraid thought that's what you were going to say because in American Western culture there is far more fear of death than there is fear of God people people live their lives afraid of death and what that might mean more than they have palpable fear of God for you and your community and your culture you grew up in fear with God was palpable it was real it was visceral you felt it far more than fear of death so don't want people to miss how radical of an experience that was for you so this fellow says maybe you're not supposed to die for you know Allah you're supposed to live for him in the book you start walking through ways you would kind of live for him and even evangelize Christians so to speak so interesting to me pick up the story where you left off and what that looks like in your life at this stage started to be like really reaching out Den who works 247 to reach out for Muslims to bring them to Islam became so popular in doing that many people started to know me and many people started to come actually was successful in doing this job many people became radical Muslims became salafi or at least started to to take care of their faith and they became like to repent in the Muslim understanding also and to become real Muslims because for us most of the people are not real Muslims they are because for example when you don't pray the five prayers you are not real Muslim because what's your accuse so for me they started to be real Muslim but the problem that the more do that the more succeed in doing that felt that there is something missing there is something that is not equal to Jihad you know because was dreaming of jihad and used to think that for example Muslims will go to heaven anyway because actually this is big problem in Islam they think that there is Hadith that says if you say no God except Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet you will go to heaven even if you steal and you commit adultery you will go to heaven and this means that you may go to hell for purification but then you will go to heaven at the end you will not remain in Hell For Eternity that's for sure as Muslim so they accordingly started to feel like I'm calling people it's good to call people to be radical Muslims but want to do something more something more strong than that and here started to think of calling Christians to Islam interesting and this was really fun because tried to to play it safe in the beginning so decided to do that online so in in three months got three women to to to from Islam to to from Christianity to Islam and today can say that they were not real Christian they were nominal Christians interesting but but at the end for me they were Christians you know this is what know this is what grow up with so worked so well with that so felt that maybe got three Christians in three mons that's easy job think my next step should be the pope of Egypt so the Pope the pope of the cop Church why not he's not harder than Omar the second khif of Islam who was really very Infidel and he came to to God so for me this to Allah this is not hard job but need to study need to be realistic so to study started to attend Islamic apologetic lectures andics and this here the story starts to be more interesting actually because was shocked in these meetings in the beginning liked it was happy with what learned but after while started to feel like that these people speak 80% about Christians and 20% about Christianity 80% look for Christians look how they look look for her for the women with their hair look for how they talk look for they are unclean they are these stuff but at the end 20% only about Christianity and this 20% was for me another problem because used to call it too obvious to be true too obvious to be true for example when you tell me you know what Jesus said for example my father is greater than this is big verse but definitely Christians have have comment on that Christians would have an answer or have something to say about it but they know never mentioned that they always mention that but they have bad answers and they don't have an answer actually they don't have real answers on our questions this is what they say that Christians have no real answers but they never discuss it so went to one of the imams after the prayer and after one of the lectures sorry and told him may ask your question we have lot of of intelligent people in Christianity there are professors there are Engineers doctors and in Egypt actually many Christians are having very good jobs so don't you think that they they they have opinion about these verses or why why don't they don't become Muslims for example and his answer was want to ask you question told him what he told me who is the most intelligent people on earth told him do not know who who are the most intelligent people he said Japanese Japanese people people are the most intelligent said why he said because of technology and they are the best with electronics and said okay then he said at the end they bow down before statue so it's not by intellect it's by faith so it has nothing to do with intellect told him okay but actually didn't buy this answer it was for me like not real answer and felt like I'm wasting my time I'm just gaining hatred for how Christians are stupid because they don't mind their own book in very in the right way and felt like I'm getting deceived here by way or another because definitely they have answers Christians definitely they have at least comments otherwise they are very stupid you know I'm sorry to say right right because the verse is very clear for example this is eternal life that you they know they may know you only the father and God Jesus Christ may you may have so it's very clear verse right if it means what the Muslim says so for for me was definite that they have another understanding so left them and started to say will search myself for Bible need to find Bible and if found Bible will study it myself self and get Christians to be Muslims and that's easy but the problem how find the Bible because used to have some beard used to have no mustache was afraid looked so salafy and was afraid to to go to library to Christian library and and ask for Bible you know they will think that I'm going to bomb the library was afraid right so didn't succeed so started to ask among Christians and here is very important point joh that they are Christian were so afraid to speak to me nobody told me who is really Jesus Christ Christians were so afraid and we need to learn to be bald we need to learn to stand Bal for our faith everyone were just afraid and avoiding until one guy accepted to give me Bible online and opened the Gospel of John and in the beginning it was the word and the Word was was God and the Word was God and felt that understood nothing what this is what does this this is so philosophical was expecting quranic Bible you know something like the Quran you have to do this and do that something like that you know so when did not find it and started to go inside little bit in the gospel and found that Jesus go Jesus when Jesus came down where is God why do you don't speak about God yeah but Jesus Is God yeah but don't see any Divine way of talking here you know it's very simple so very philosophical in the beginning very simple in some stories inside that don't understand and needed someone to sumarize this for me you know needed someone to tell me this is 1 12 34 this is Christianity and accordingly started to search on internet and was not able to find that because it was not that popular this arguments between Christians and Muslims there were debates for sure but all the debates is for Ahmed didat and didn't watch in the beginning Josh mcduell debate watched the others why because actually it was not popular among because remember get this from Muslim websit of and this debate is not popular you know there of course not yes yes Josh and and and anise he these two are not popular there anise sure was not popular so started to to feel like it's very easy to defeat Christians you know just do likeed need someone to summarize the faith to me what to say Christians so so decided that will surf on the internet until one day that's the moment got on the time of dialup they used to be advertising box you know jumping and coming on and so on so box pumped to my Mo my my laptop screen my my sorry my PC screen and it was written on it do you love Allah and said yes love Allah for sure I'm Muslim who loves Allah clicked it and it was Christian website it was very special Christian website very simple getting from story from Adam till Jesus Christ in very magnific magnificent way in very simple way and at the same time you can see the line of God behind the story so much connected so much related so much deep for moment after read the whole website everything in the website read because it was so interesting and said this is wow but wait minute how how could like it I'm I'm I'm Muslim am salafy Muslim not normal salafy not normal Muslim should not like that and for the first time start to look at my library that was full and packed with Muslim books and to look at the website and look back here and back there back here and back there and suddenly said to myself for the first time in my life maybe we are wrong wow this was something very hard to say it's very hard for copy to say that and started to to say no maybe this is wrong need to read the Quran opened the Quran started to read and started to see it with very new eyes as I'm reading it for the first time my God how how believe that how how how relate this how how Mary is the sister of Aaron and and at the same time the the daughter of Imam but she is the mother of Jesus I'm lost you know I'm lost in the details and actually started to ask myself deeper question who said that God exist have never asking myself this question have never don't know it was for me surprise and like don't have enough evidence except the Quran but what if the Quran is wrong what if the Quran is not the only true book so in while in very short while became an atheist so got got to jump in here for second your thinking was not if Islam is false Maybe Christian is true but if Islam is false all of religion at least monotheistic religions are false that was your thinking right okay yes all religions are false because Islam is false you know what what else could be true is FSE that makes sense there's lot of folks that are are Mormons who will rather than come into Christianity and think well maybe that's wrong they'll go to agnosticism or atheism that's common thing you feel burned you probably felt deceived and so you didn't want to get burned and deceit again so tell us about what it was how long were you an atheist how did this affect you and then ultimately well let's start there how long were you an atheist and how did what was it like to live as an atheist stayed around six months of of being atheist not for long time okay but but did everything wrong in this in this very short period everything wrong was looking as saafi in the morning in the five prayers but after the last prayer am free to do whatever want was free to do everything wrong and this was very many people because how look even if cut my beer little bit and which is was which was very weird thing and for my for my surroundings and why you are doing that said security has some issues with me need to be be careful these days but actually it's not security it's was that want to be an atheist want to do practice more atheism and freedom from this God don't have any God anymore so want to enjoy life but at the same time I'm so afraid to say to people that become an atheist because they will kill me so to keep the balance I'm sorry so that's very big shift now you're afraid of dying in way that you weren't afraid before so taking God away in this sense your reasoning was there's no life after death there's hence no accountability no heaven or hell so want to live this life for pleasure for the moment so don't want somebody to kill me while I've still got breath and it can enjoy myself is that fair encapsulation exactly exactly won't enjoy life don't trust that will have after death and did everything wanted everything dreamed of to the extent that started to feel like is that everything everything is that everything because can do whatever want can hide can pretend can lie and then is it is it true that this is all what we have all all what what what's in it you know this is this is naive and started to feel like am weary of of of pleasure that it's too much pleasure so much to the extent that you are never satisfied but actually you have different feeling you get bored especially if you still have inside you this feeling of what's the proof what what what's what will be there mean still Seeker I'm still Seeker still want to find the truth find an answer so started to move from being atheist to start to feel like who knows even atheism is not enough especially when started to try to be an intellect and try to back myself up with some arguments for atheist this was so awful because started to feel like we are dancing for our DNA no we are for example started to feel like one of the major things started to feel that still want life to be fair with me based on what want life to be fair if I'm atheist there is no fairness supposedly there's nothing fair is unfair good is good everything is the same so it doesn't matter but actually it mattered it mattered lot it mattered for me that after after do whatever want to do then what then what then will will die and that's it and that's very empty and want to believe actually like this book where it says don't have enough Faith to be an atheist really need lot of faith to be an atheist because want to believe that nothing created everything and then they start to analyze it and say no the rains dropped down and it became mono cell and what you talk about what you talk about this is this is this is still will keep this will not answer the question as always say atheist for me the main problem with it that it doesn't give you an alternative it takes you away from everything but then what is the alternative what's then what then what okay I'm with you I'm atheist what let's do nothing enjoy even jooy look for this even jooy let's enjoy why why because if there is no negative there is no positive if there is no even there is no good so why enjoy why call Joy joy it's not joy maybe it's pain but don't realize it mean it's it's it's very naive there is no intellectual base for that and we can go in details for for for many hours talking about this because because it has nothing but became more agnostic and started to say don't know actually do not know it's easier for me to be ignorant than to be an atheist actually but then still after while felt like when say do not know then do do not the problem that do not know so cannot take decision because of lack of knowledge or do not know because cannot know that's big question sure and started to feel like or to see that if there is God then there is possibility of knowledge to to know him because there is problem with decision making skills not problem with in in agnosticism the problem is decision making skills not the lack of knowledge because in in any mean by any mean you will lean towards one of the of the scale balance you know one of the sides of the scale you should lean towards one of them you will be more into actually we don't know but most probably there is no God or sure sure don't know that there is God maybe but don't know but you still lean towards even with 0.1% this means that you lean towards something and it's impossible for me logically to keep the balance for long time it's impossible that that makes sense so you shift from Islam to atheism and then agnosticism now you move towards Christianity and that's not the end of the journey there's going to be some things that surprise people come back to but tell us why you move towards Christianity but then at this stage in your life actually become disillusioned with it yes moved from agnosticism after while of being agnostic and started to take decision that there is God as said lean towards it so became more like deist that there is God but maybe he left us or maybe we are abundant or maybe he's not person don't know but there is someone something control us and started to to live with that for while for around another six months around that time but it was awful experience because even with believing that there is God you feel without having this God as person you feel that you speak to the air all the time because there is no response you know speak to the wall you are speaking to the hand you know so no no response no no no one is is feeding back with anything no no communication and beside being leading the prayer in the mosque was Learning and Development consultant this was my job actually where get my salary so was teaching soft skills teach leadership Communication customer service sales you know so asked myself simple question after being so tired of lot of pressure and lot of problems that needed God in it needed someone to help me so got this question to my head which says simp simp if am communication skills trainer why God cannot be communication skill traine at least it's fair question right he should have something teach it and I'm human I'm limited and teach human communicational skills why God cannot be that knowledgeable about communication you should have communication in return right agree so why he's not communicating or is communicating in way that don't understand also will share something with you that didn't share before in any of my interviews was tired one day and decided to kill myself my goodness wow yes was tired was overwhelmed and had some tablets to to for my blood veins that narrow the blood veins and took all of it and said let's die wow and said this is I'm tired and was afraid to die but now don't care because I'm tired because I'm alone but the problem that the medicine that I've taken is very is very strong and painful mhm it's it narrow your blood vessel so imagine my blood vessels coming started to appear on my head and on my face it was it was so bad mean it's it's it's so painful you feel that something is squeezing you from inside it's very painful and started to cry for the first time in my life and started to say God if you are there get me out of this and will be real Seeker will search for you this time will search for you for real if you get me out of that slept or fainted actually and woke up like nothing has happened to me like nothing has happened wow like did not take this medicine at all so found that have no option except bound down gning down on my knees crying out for God telling him look I'm trying to search for you but you are so big for me to find you and I'm so small for you to find me but please do something and find me in that night went to sleep and saw in my dreams that I'm running in very long road lot of tree branches full of thorns chasing me want to kill me and at the end of the Road there is man there is house with man standing there shouted help me do something he stretched his hand put it on my shoulder and brought me before him and found once stood before him that he is Jesus Christ looked and he looked deep in my eyes and he said it's your time to follow me woke up with my dreams and said you know this is most probably hallucinations you know because I'm busy with the idea and and I'm very occupied with the movies that watch this is not real but in the next night got the same dream with the same details so walked out this time and started to say look this is not joke looked at heaven and he said to him please if you are really Jesus Christ come to me one more time with the same details otherwise will not think of you again imagine what he came and this time he looked deep in my eyes and he said didn't tell you it's your time to follow me wow this additional word statement didn't tell you was my proof that he was listening this was my proof that when said to him if you are Jesus Christ come to me one more time this was my proof and was full of tears didn't was not able to take it this he's full of love this is not the God know the God know if challenged him he would say go to hell don't waste my time you're stupid but the this Jesus is different he's full of love and he just understands you the way you are so woke up not as Christian but as believer in Jesus this Jesus want to believe in or at least seeker of who Jesus is want to know two questions actually who is Jesus and why me okay this was getting me crazy why me why why why not any other Christian not any other person and it took me some time time to to get to know that got connected through talk with one of the pastors and he was apologist by the way and this was the first Christian apologist meet ever and he started to talked to him and he answered and he asked it to meet me and he listened to my story the way you listen now and he he told me something that was very wise this was the first response get in my life from an apologist and actually learned lot from this response after told him so why me he told me Thomas when you asked God to come to you again did he come said yeah he came he said okay then ask him why me he will answer this is very personal relationship don't make me interfere in it this was very wise answer for the first time listened the word personal relationship this is personal relationship between you and God keep it like this started to meet him for several weeks and didn't know that was getting discipled but was think disciple right he was discipling me and it took that it didn't takes few weeks it took actually three years all what do that study Islam and Christianity why Islam because simply this is the only worldview have in my head for God sure don't have any other image for God so it took me three years just studying Islam and Christianity until told him want to get baptized and want to become Christian and he actually was not welcoming the idea so fast he was asking me to wait but insisted and found my way to get baptized and this was not wise was not ready according to him but and also didn't mention these details before but insisted to get baptized so fast and got baptized and fall very fast after that in what we call the doubt after Faith or the being skeptic after Faith after came to Faith started to ask myself did do the right step is it the right thing maybe there are other religions that we never hear about is right also and also let me say something very important the church pressured me lot was gusted out of many churches by the way many churches were afraid of my questions because was guy who asked lot and at the same time was the guy with many problems because came from this Muslim background with salafi background so they were afraid of my family sure so they don't want me to be involved in the church so it was double pressure actually and it was hard for me to continue with this pressure started to feel more skeptic and Christians are not welcoming me for real and maybe there is something else love Jesus but maybe there's something else still and this brought me to stress little bit and when stressed decided to to do some breathing exercises that learned then tried to find group of breathing exercises and instead of the breathing exercises group found meditation group on let me stop for second before you jump into this couple pieces you had described how in in some of the Christian experience you had it felt so ritualistic that it kind of felt like Islam over again and that it really was in different faith that was such an important point but you also describe how your doubts came from intellectual questions you had but also the way Christians were treating you or not treating you relationally created some doubt so don't want people to miss that it was both of those is asking questions but also Christians maybe not living as we're supposed to loving people inviting questions and so you go into these breathing exercises and now you're shifting from Christianity to this new age World viw pick up the story started to find this meditation group and liked it so much because started it was free group for everyone and it's it's made by Indians so felt like my God this is the the the the roots of meditation they are the best in meditation and started to go to their house do meditation with them but found found out that it's more than meditation because they after the the class you should share experiences we feel things and we share it we hear sounds and we share about it we hear voices and when you ask them what are these voices they say these are the Masters and this make me curious I'm curious guy yday and started to feel like want to know what are these people maybe they have the truth too so so started to attend and regularly and started to sit after the Le the session with them to eat and to have some socialization and was the best like follow the instructions do meditations do meditation do meditation every day keep it every day I'm copy you know it's easy for me to have to do try to do increase the time of meditation increase the time of my meditation from 1 minute to seven hours to seven hours sitting doing meditation can you imagine that was so dedicated to learn seven hours doing in the nothing world going into the deep meditation reading their books reading until they told me started to ask them lot of questions and what is good about them that they like to answer they like questions and they like to answer questions so started to go with these questions and and with these answers and like the answers because they have their way they make you more Curious they have this style that make you more Curious and this is actually new age style and that's why many people follow new age because it make you curious ask me any question can make you more curious like for example what's the meaning of life can answer you in way that make you so curious for example the meaning of life is what you really mean and what you really understand when you go deep in your personal experience and feel it and become one with it actually what said now Shan is nothing if you Analyze This is was listening but it makes you like wow this guy is wise but actually this is the new age style people don't want to believe that but really went into that and this is how they do it became so good in that and liked it was so curious learned how to do it until they said you should meet the big boss like you meet you should meet the Goro the big Goro and met the big Goro it was movement called pssm pyramid spirital Society movement and it was they believe in the energy of pyramids and they they had big boss called baharam marish patrii he passed away two years ago and he's very well known in India in many places in India and he met me and he said remember his words also he said you are an intelligent guy and we want you with us like because meditation give you peace in in way it's fake peace but in the beginning you feel it peaceful will tell you why it's fake after few moments but you feel nice you feel calm you feel that you don't care about problems anymore like you can deal with everything and felt that and this encouraged you to to to feel that you are doing the right thing you know so walked forward and until they decided that should go to India you are very special and they started to believe that am The Reincarnation of someone called and they they they sent me to India to attend very very big conference for meditation called Diana mahash shakram the very Universal conference for meditation worldwide went there was very affected by them talking like them speaking like them and even got the Indian accent in my talk this was very hard for me but was like that was like imitating them and everything this is what want to say became copy of them until after become went there people started to see dreams about me as Goro they announced me as goru as teacher and one once went down the stage after my first speech found group of people bowing down before me as and this was shocking for me Shan this was normal there it's matter of respect not worship but for me still was very shocking because didn't grow up like that and believe that should only for God you know cannot ever take this place and there was It was kind of something giving me my mind back you know get my mind back you know and start to feel like what I'm doing what am doing people bowing down for me do believe that did believe myself know that this is all just not real but like the flow like the FL and started to think also that there is something demon in it because you have you you you you feel demonic stuff in this saw people healing people saw people elevating saw strange things saw very weird things from the monks there and you don't feel comfortable with it you know you don't have peace when you see it you feel uncomfortable and you feel like my God there's something wrong here and the second thing that felt that God is answering my question about something in Islam know this is suddenly unrelated but it's related because in Islam used to ask myself how many people followed Muhammad how many people followed Muhammad you know this was very strange for me but actually saw in India in this mahash 80,000 people following 80 can you imagine and they're very simple people just believe what people say to them because they want to get healed or they want to get Glory or they want to be he Li so decided that only Jesus was different for me so decided something strange decided that will go back to Egypt and will worship Jesus alone and as if I'm the only one who worship Jesus and came and to make the long story short because this will take another time was able to introduce Faith to my wife ncy who was not my wife at that time and invited her to Faith and she came to Faith but the problem that after she got baptized and we got married and was casted out of my family because got married to someone out of our group we Liv together and Nancy started to feel like why you are not ritual why you don't want to go to church and do things and that for me it was like not again did lot of rituals in my life you know I'm tired of that so she brought friend and she told me what Thomas what's your problem what what's your problem with your faith why you are not practicing told her because believe 1 2 3 4 believe that faith is not rituals believe believe that it's relationship believe that we should be focused on Jesus Christ alone believe that the Bible is our only script that we should be following and said some stuff that she told me okay so you are Evangelical told her no I'm Christian she said yeah you are Evangelical Christian thought don't know that and she took me to the church for the first time to another church where felt welcomed and felt not where felt everyone is praying the same way pray freely without cruls without limits and very open to God and everyone is blessing the other and felt like found myself on that day decided to give my life to Jesus 100% not 99 not 99.5 100% want to live for Jesus Christ not only to die for him so one of the things you walk through in your book we won't do this here is you lay out case for the Bible being reliable and one of the things thought was fascinating is when you compared reading the New Testament for the first time of the gospels how different it was from the Quran like some of these sayings were kind of divorced from Context there's no details given in the Quran these spiritual Saints in the Bible we're told the people and the place and the time and details we can check out that are actually confirmed when we check them out you walk through that you walk through one of the big challenges that you have for the Quran Surah four that denies that Jesus died on the cross and you walk through the historical record that this is just really in sense overwhelming from within the scriptures without the scriptures Jewish sources Roman sources cannot deny that Jesus died yet the Quran comes six centuries later and denies that so appreciate lot of the apologetic material want folks to know is in your book we're not going to go into but do you recall moment where you really had an experience of Grace is this when you went to the church because it'd be easier for people to watch this to say well was committed to this faith was committed to that faith and now I'm just committed to the Christian faith but at the root of the Christian faith is recognition that one is sinner and needs God's grace and can't earn it given that you came from such background of striving help us understand when you got God's grace and what that meant to you first of all that's amazing question and found after going through all these World Views sh that there are something very common between World Views something very common between all World Views except Christianity it's partially in Christianity but not in the same way what is very very common that simply all religions ask you to Worship in way or another worship call it worship call it meditation call it yoga call it bowing down call it Mantra call it whatever but it's worship kind of worship and then they say this worship will make you righteous in way or another call it righteous call it good call it faithful call it religious call it whatever but it will make you righteous so you worship and then you become righteous and when you become righteous you will get your reward and this reward is salvation or call it Paradise call it Nirvana call it Moka call it regardless whatever you call it different religions but but in Christianity and this exists supposedly in all religions these three but in Christianity found something very unique very unique and very different found that Christianity is not asking me to worship to get salvation to be righteous and be get get salvation found that Christianity is exactly the same three but the opposite it's exactly the opposite Christianity is saying you get salvation you get salvation first and it's by grace and it's for free amen and you cannot get it yourself you cannot work it yourself you cannot become righteous yourself you need salvation and when you get salvation you will become righteous by God's grace again so you get salvation for free by Jesus Christ dying on the cross and resurrecting you become righteous in Jesus Christ who died on the cross and be resurrected and accordingly you get the holy spirit that give you the power to worship so you will not worship to get saved saved no you are saved so you worship you are not fasting to get saved you are saved so you fast and so on it's exactly the opposite and found that this really matter this really matter that need to get Grace first need to be saved first so become righteous cannot make myself righteous ask any person can you make yourself rightous even atheist can you make yourself can you can you be sure that you do no mistakes you know do no sins at all no you cannot nobody can keep himself from being sinner no one can keep himself from doing the wrong things no one keep himself from being alienated and this is more important this existential problem of meaning why exist why how should be be living my life where I'm going to this existential questions we'll keep fighting we'll keep chasing you and this you these questions needs one answer with all love to the amazing James sire in his books and his amazing contribution on World Views there is in my opinion there is one answer that can sum up all these answers it's salvation you need to be saved and accordingly am saved so am God's image and Jesus is in me am saved so live in jesus' image and this is how behave I'm saved so I'm still on I'm saved so will be with Jesus after that am saved and that's the most important and accordingly am righteous before God's eye am respected before God's eye am welcomed before God's eye and am God is standing for us God is standing for us and accordingly I'm enjoying my worship I'm not worship in fear anymore used to cry in my prayers you can nobody can imagine how much cried in my prayers asking God and hearing the stories of Muhammad companions how they used to pray as slaves you know that this what they teach us that they used to pray like slaves and they put on used to put on the clothes of slave and the chains in his neck to show himself as slave when he's standing before God to tell him am your slave am nothing just to forgive me and I'm standing with confidence and see Paul saying he in confidence we enter to the Holiness what's what's the difference there is big difference here in confidence can enter with the blood of Jesus Christ to the Holiness of God Abu Bakr sik he says am afraid if my right leg is inside heaven and the other is outside cannot trust God's deceivement What What In meditation they tell you the highest you can reach is meditation and actually there is no meaning meditation is the meaning this is what the gorus say really in atheist they say actually there is no meaning don't bother yourself with all of that in agnosticism they say no we do not know if there is meaning or not because we do not know what do you mean by that and inm they say we cannot say that there is definite meaning actually but there is some kind of meaning that is Earthly we are not sure of what will happen after no world view can give the answer except Jesus Christ who said come to me because am the light who said come to me and the Living Water who said am the truth the way and the life who said everything that nobody dare to claim and he did it in front of everyone Jesus didn't die on on cave in the mountain hiding from people and didn't resurrect in front of the mirror Alone with nobody seeing him no he did both in front of people and people were witnessing nothing can confront that my dear brother this shift in your life especially there's component that we left out at the beginning read to my wife last night when was reading your book that you and and some of your fellow salafi kind of followers would carry around like candle that if you or lighter that if you sinned you would burn your hand to just remind yourself what hell was like so you would stop sinning that kind of Slavery to fear to sin is so different than what Grace brings and transforms from the inside out so then we can begin to be the kind of people God desires us to be so the desire to not to sin has completely different motivation love how that comes out in your story now I've got couple more questions about your story what what did this cost you did you tell your family did you stay in Egypt what happened how did you eventually you and your wife come out and start to Proclaim to the world as you do now in your book that you're Christian actually it was hard to continue in Egypt because after we became alone in our house we became like small Church everyone was coming to us talking about religion everyone was confessing Faith having discussions and so on and this made us lot of problems that we were in need to leave and we left by God's grace in safely to another country and received decided after left found out that n's family knew about it my family doubt it and the police knows about it so said to Nancy who else we care about let's put this on Facebook let's announce our faith I'm tired want to be come to the light didn't travel to stay hiding and put on Facebook witnessed that there is no God except the Lord Jesus Christ and worship him and received within week 300 or two weeks received 359 direct death threat wow around that number yes and people were so strange my dear brother in in in talking about killing me they were so Innovative don't know why they were so Innovative guy called me will never forget this guy guy called to me you know will not kill you want to Rob your hand and get your wife and sleep with her and then bite torture her and then cut her into pieces and give her to dogs jeez and you are watching while you are watching told him my God how you thought of that how you thought of that how you get such an idea people are full of hatred full of hatred towards conversion and towards feeling that they are wrong that's their problem they are afraid to feel wrong they are afraid to feel like my God if this guy converted maybe Islam is wrong so am so this costed me that do not connect with my family anymore do not connect with my friends anymore most of the people rejected me in Egypt the people used to know mean or insulted me or threatening me or so it cost me lot however did not lose anything because got my satisfaction in Jesus Christ this is very important amen saw the presence of the Lord in every step in my life saw it saw it witness for it and I'm here to witness about that Jesus was there with me never ever have billion of Stories We need billion of episodes to cover what God's grace happened and what happened with me during this journey so we we we flee and we we we struggled little bit in the beginning as everyone as as some some people are escaping from their country you know it's not easy in the beginning and it took me some time but as said witnessed from the first week about that and then decided to to try to to work and and and serve the Lord but then go God called me to be dedicated for Ministry and it has its own story that mentioned maybe in the book book and it's it's long story that made me accepting that will become servant for the Lord this is what will do you know will serve the Lord and accordingly started to search for study because love to study all salafi people like to study by the way love to study and or most of them and it was not easy to find the right study and that in my circumstances and in the country where am until studied some apologetics in some apologetic Academy then because was big fan of apologetics and studying different religions and worldviews then started to found very interesting friend telling me about another friend who was friend of his and his name is Joshua lingle and really care to mention his name and think he is common friend also and this is how we got to know each other so Joshua is very special he is the the the president of I2 ministers and the dean of mmw mission Muslim World University where he got in contact with me and found really welcoming and like you find your place man he was like you are in the right place World University this is you Thomas and joined the study it's pathway of Masters and did the pathway and was honored that you lectured to me in this in this school and it's amazing intensive program of 40 doctors in in in in 30 different courses completed together or in squee together in intensive nine courses and now after you join that you go to God's Bible school and then you continue your master thesis I'm very honored that did my thesis on the Trinity yes you did and it's about to be also book that will come out soon after this one after my testimony it will be the Trinity revealed am answering the book of rahah hindii which is the truth revealed rahah is the Godfather for Ahmed and and all the Muslim apologists I'm answering his chapter on the Trinity didn't know he was the Godfather of didot which takes us back to that debate he had with my father early 80s almost about 40 years ago that was well let's come back and revisit and discuss that book down the road for now want people to pick up your book that is coming out called it is your time to follow me and we kind of walked through some of the details this book there's lot of stories there's lot of insights there's lot of apologetic content that we didn't even get to so hope people pick it up just to support you and to get your story out there but here's my last question Thomas you fear death when you're Muslim I'm sorry you didn't fear death when you're Muslim you wanted to die you feared God more because of your understanding that God could ultimately determine your eternal fate became an atheist and you feared death because this life from that perspective is all that there is given that there's death threats on your life do you fear death now I'm welcoming death actually but not in this sense of Islam I'm welcoming to be with Jesus Christ however have one condition for anyone who wants to kill me please read the Bible before you kill me and and look at the cross and read why Jesus has crucified and resurrected and then you are welcome to do whatever you want but read his story because he deserves to be read actually Thomas that is mic drop moment for us to end on I'm honored to have you on love your story you have blessed me powerfully want you to know that and by the way did my dissertation which had that chance to lecture on when we met few months ago and one of my favorite Apostles if not my favorite Apostle is Thomas he gets bad rep as being called doubter he's not doubter he said give me evidence will not believe unless you can show me the hands and show me the wounds I'm that way give me the evidence give me the proof and you are that way so think your name is very prophetic that you were living out in many ways the example of the Apostle Thomas we will do this again it's been great to make your acquaintance folks who are watching here make sure you hit subscribe we want to highlight remarkable stories like this as we can we're going to have Thomas back down the road to talk about his case and defense for the Trinity which I'm already looking forward to if you thought about studying apologetics you heard today how valuable and important apologetics is whatever your journey is theism atheism agnosticism new age Islam we've talked about it all and apologetics is like golden thread that goes through that we'd love to have you come study here with us at Biola fully distan in fact we've had some people from Egypt and other parts the Middle East and around the world be part of our program Thomas it was an honor I'm really looking forward to doing it again thank you my friend thank you thank you