God Said So Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery

minutes early and might have to leave out and come back in so that can make sure that I'm all buttoned up. Hey. Hey, Miss Wayne. How are you? Give me just minute. I'm so sorry. need to get my guest. And every day I'm learning something new when it comes to this social media stuff that I'm doing. So, give me just Give me just minute. am trying to figure something out here. And I'm hoping Hey. Hey, everybody. Hey, give me minute. I'm trying to get Tina in. Hi. Shalom to you as well. you guys are going to have to bear with me if for some reason need to leave and come back out because need to be able to share the link so that can invite Tina because she is definitely waiting to be invited. Hold on for moment. Give me just moment. I'm so sorry about this. Give me minute. am am working is what I'll say. I'm sorry, you guys. know it's 3:00. appreciate you all being here. Please you all bear with me. Bear with me. I'm I'm going to be just few more minutes. am trying to get this for you. Give me just minute. am trying so hard. my god. am coming, Tina. Please forgive me. I'm really am. Man, let me tell you something. Instagram does not make it easy to stream all over the place. Let me just say that really quickly. and that's what need to be able need to You guys, might have to leave out Hold on for moment. see that my Instagram fam is here and I'm really really happy to see you guys. And see that YouTube is here as well, which is awesome. Yep, see Instagram is here as well. I'm not sure why it's not allowing Okay, there it is. so glad you're back. I'm loving these lives. Love the green wall color. Thank you so much, Eric Williams. like the green wall color, too. good good friend of mine helped me paint my house and love the color and he's such an artist. invite guest press one. Copy link. you guys just continue to bear with me. When tell you appreciate your patience, I'm not lying about that. really do. do so very much. And yeah, I'm trying my best to get this over to you. give me just minute. Hold on. Okay. Okay, think that in minute I'll be able to have my guest on, Tina. And it's not her fault. It's totally my fault. I've tried my best to get this right. let's see. Yeah, okay. She She got it. So, Okay. my goodness gracious. Tina. Lord Jesus. Every single day I'm learning something new. Every single day, girl. was over here dying. I'm so happy to have you back. Yeah, I'm happy to be back. Happy to be back. Thanks for having me. And I'm hoping that my face isn't too close to the screen because friend of mine sent me screen grab of me yesterday and you look absolutely beautiful. And look like the bobblehead face that's like floating in the middle of the screen. It was ridiculous. So, was like, what am doing with my life right now? it was it was bit much. Thank you so much. Well, you know, this is first hello for lot of our Instagram family that's here. Instagram doesn't make it super easy to to do to to connect these lives and stuff. So, it's it's little bit frustrating. however, just wanted to do quick intro. you know, yesterday something really special happened on the live. didn't expect it. When we talked about Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, one of the most celebrated progressive legal minds, so-called legal minds in American history, and she cited papal document. But before get into that, hold on. want to quickly try to pull up Give me minute. Do me favor. Tina, would you mind just talking to people little bit about who you are? And then I'm going to pull up your intro so you don't have to toot your horn for too long. Sure. my name's Tina Ngata, and am Ngati Porou woman. come from the Ngati Porou people on the East Cape of the Ikaroa, whose colonized name is the North Island of New Zealand. and so am researcher around the doctrine of discovery. I've been researching and educating around the doctrine of discovery since 2013. And also lead up the People's Action Plan Against Racism in Aotearoa here in New Zealand. And yeah, do just lot of work around trying to put things right that the colonizer put wrong. And in general. So, really happy to be here. Really happy to be here. You have lot of work to do cuz they put lot wrong on purpose. I'm going to do an intro because Tina's not going to really big herself up the way she should. So, the person that's joining me today has done so much to expose the doctrine of discovery more than many people, most people on the planet. And her name is Tina Ngata. she is My and I'm going to mispronounce this again. Maori indigenous indigenous rights activist. She's researcher, she's an author, and more importantly, she's truth-teller. Her book, Kia Mau: Resisting Colonial Fictions, it lays out with surgical precision, how series of papal bulls written in the 15th century became the legal and theological foundation for the genocide, land theft, and exploitation of indigenous people across the entire globe, including Africa. She's taken this work to the UN. She's stood on her own land and she's refused to allow colonial fictions to go unchallenged. She's here again today because we we really need to hear her voice. And so, I'm just so happy to have you back here today. Thanks again for for being with me, Tina. For being with us. no. I'm really happy to be here, Chanel. And was really enjoying our chat yesterday. So, I'm glad we get to continue it. know. Well, I'm going to go to the chat really quickly because we have lots of people who are checking in. Steve Anderson, thanks for being with us again today. Peace be unto you, Queen Chanel and Tina, is what Steve is saying. Thank you again. Looking beautiful. Thanks for sharing and checking in from Zimbabwe. Appreciate the knowledge you're sharing. Keep it up. Shout out to you and Tina. Tina is real one. You know, yesterday before had some technical difficulties, Tina had brought up the fact that the doctrine of discovery has been used even in present day as precedent for giving native lands to Europeans. And was able remember that in 2005 so-called progressive Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg cited the doctrine of discovery and she which which basically took away the right for native tribe here in the United States, of course, to have access to lands that they should have had access to. And think people were really surprised by that because, you know, in the last several years of RBJ's life, Ruth Bader Ginsburg's life, she was really being held up as this progressive woman's woman type of you know, person. Kids were dressing up as her for for Halloween here in the United States. And think people were really surprised when they began to really look into and hear about this case. And you wrote about it, you referenced it in your book, but kind of wanted to go back to that. And for those people who don't know what the doctrine of discovery is, if you could just give them very brief definition, synopsis of what is the doctrine of discovery and what kind of impact did it have on the continent of Africa and native indigenous communities' lands all over the world. Sure thing. So, the elevator pitch, guess you call it, is that the doctrine of discovery is social, legal, economic, and political framework. It's philosophy that informs across all of those areas and it is rooted in history of religious law. And so, in the starting in the what's today termed the occupied territories of Palestine, where European Christians first believed that they had the right to violently take territories and harm peoples and to take permission from the Vatican, from the Pope to do that. Just quick little side note there is that the Pope who actually initiated that, Pope Urban the Second, even though this was back in like the 10th century that he was advocating for the Crusades, he is now often cited by white supremacists, particularly mass killers, today. And there's this what would Urban do is little catchphrase of theirs. And the Christchurch mosque terrorist who in 2019 shot up number of mosques and here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, referenced Pope Urban on his weapons. He wrote about it on his weapons. So, that's the that again is just clear testament to how present this history is still, specifically with white supremacist, violent white supremacists today. Now, that eventually moved into Africa through the Portuguese king Afonso, who utilized those permissions to enter into the slave trade, the Saharan slave trade, and to industrialize it, and to open up channels of trading slaves to Europe. And importantly at that point, they took slavery and created industrialized chattel slavery, essentially, by saying just Tina, just want to interject in there that Afonso was known as Was he not known as Afonso of Africa, the king? Wasn't he known as Afonso of Africa because of all of the exploitation that he was doing in West throughout the continent of Africa? That's the name that they gave him. just wanted to to put that in there. I'm sorry to cut you off. No, no, you're you're quite right to point that out. And so because because he was one of the early monarchs to really claim these entitlements. And the entitlements were very explicit and clear in the papals that that he attained, which were to invade, to subdue, to subject, to dispossess, and commit to perpetual servitude the people that you will come across. And to take their like broad, as you said yesterday, Chanel, they left no stone unturned. They even explicitly cited the geographies, so your harbors, islands, seas, all of the areas, their dominions as well. And importantly, what they cited were also political systems, principalities, as well as kingdoms and dukedoms. So these are political systems that they were also given rights to take over. And so that eventually also led to further religious laws that allowed them to then take those entitlements and apply them over the around the world to all of the what they called the new world. So now we're coming into the times of Columbus, Cortez, Pizarro, the conquistadors. And and this is what started to provoke the transport of enslaved Africans across to these new colonies to service the conquistadors who were placed there to maintain the system of dispossessing indigenous people where they were. As this kind of grew around came shared language between colonized territories. And this was the foundation of international law and international relations. And it has never been reckoned with because it's never been rescinded. they built their local governments off the back of those assumptions. And then of course the local governments eventually became national governments all the way through to 1940s where the international order was developed through the through the United Nations. And so all of these kind of levers of colonial European privilege are still baked into those systems. And it helps us to understand how much of this kind of injustice is still maintained today. Thank you for giving that really detailed explanation. And for those people who are just now tuning in, want to catch you up on what we're talking about. did video few days ago about the doctrine of discovery and how that laid the groundwork for the colonization, the enslavement of not only Africa. Of course focus on the Africa Africa and its diaspora, but also in places like New Zealand, Australia, Hawaii, India. mean the Caribbean. The United what is now known as the United States. Literally all over the world. Alaska. There was not place where Europeans did not go and wreak complete and total havoc on the indigenous people who had been living on that land for thousands and in many cases of years. And so when we ask ourselves, what was it what was the ideology that was underpinned this kind of genocidal campaign that happened all over the world. And it was the doctrine of discovery. And so know you might be saying Tina has very thick New Zealand accent. What does she know about you know what's happening on the continent of Africa because you know you all follow me to hear about that. But, want us to understand that our struggles are really connected. And so, you know, just just as so many of us in the diaspora have been affected by colonialism and this doctrine of the doctrine of discovery, so has Tina. And so, just very briefly, would like for you to talk little bit about how colonialism and how the doctrine of discovery has impacted our brothers and sisters on the other side of the world in New Zealand. And how are you all what tools are you all using to to to fight back? Sure. It's actually in in transnational or international indigenous space that first heard about the doctrine of discovery. It was when we were coming together with other indigenous brothers and sisters from around the world and speaking to the United Nations around our issues. And and in the report that had been released through the United Nations that year and 2012 2013 was 2013. They had these letters in this this writing in the report which opened it not knowing what it was and it said discovery is the driver of all indigenous disposition. And that alone made was in was like need to know about this thing if you if that's true. And so, in Aotearoa, you know, this history has been deliberately suppressed in many spaces. It's been deliberately suppressed. But, here specifically so because don't know many of your audience might have kind of come across New Zealand being promoted as this very racially harmonious progressive nation. But, that is very deliberate because our own history being located on the other side of the planet from your colonizer makes violent colonization or militarized colonization very very expensive. It's expensive to send to send guns and soldiers and ships here from England on the other side of the world. So they relied on very specific kind colonization that also had the doctrine discovery, which is the notion of kind colonialism. And kind colonialism requires the recruitment of the colonized to convince the people that it is benevolent, that it is in their best interests, that it is progressive, that it you know, that it it represents evolution or social evolution. And when you can convince your population that being colonized is in their best interests, they are much less likely to play up, they are much more compliant, and it is much more achievable and cost-effective to colonize them in that way. So that's very New Zealand form of colonization, and it's one reason why the doctrine of discovery has been suppressed here. We have had leaders for many years though that have spoken about it, and Papa Moana Jackson, who was one of my mentors, is one of them, and then other indigenous leaders as also around the world have mentored me in that space and to pass that education on. Quickly on the Ruth Bader Ginsburg case, just want to point out something really interesting that also speaks to that connection, which is that Ruth Bader Ginsburg was citing case law that actually came from the early 1800s, an infamous case called Johnson McIntosh. And Johnson McIntosh basically said that when the colonizer arrives with some magic contact contact of that pink toe on the brown soil, all indigenous property rights disappear. Just with the mere presence of Europeans by virtue of their superiority. And so, that has remained in play and that was the case from the early 1800s that was being cited by Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Now, in the 1800s, Aotearoa New Zealand was also being colonized. And because with the setup, the illegitimate setup of European law here, they were taking case the cases from other colonized nations. And so, we have famous case called Wi Parata Bishop of Wellington. And in the late 1800s, where they used the same case, he called for the he used the Johnson McIntosh case and then applied it here in Aotearoa to say, "You only need to look at Johnson McIntosh in the United States for the most explicit discussion around the rights of native peoples and that you cannot take into account the the property of savages, essentially. So, that remained in New Zealand as precedent for the extinguishment of native land rights all the way through until 2004 is when one of our where our Chief Justice Sian Elias actually said, "We can't keep using that case. It has no place in in modern law." But, before that point, it was used to wipe out huge amounts of native title. And so, you know, we have all of these connections. It's absolutely, you know, the doctrine of discovery shows us the the global level, the interconnected global level of the collect Uh-oh. We're back. Uh-oh. Are you there? Yeah, I'm here. Okay. my my screen is frozen, but I'm hearing every word that you say. So, please go ahead. Okay. So, yeah, it just it just goes to show just how global that is. and you know, we have scholars like indigenous scholars like Michael Layman, Lummi scholar Michael Layman, who points out that these things have no actual legal legitimacy. They can be challenged within the legal systems. But then we also have amazing Palestinian legal scholars, international legal scholars like Noura Erakat, who points out that, you know, the way in which law is applied is not just about law itself. It's about power. And when people retain illegitimate power, they will do what they want with the law. And so, it can't just be about the law. We have to address the way in which power is underpinned by colonial privilege as well. just wanted to point that out. That you know, because this is also the case in Aotearoa, New Zealand. Our government is based upon the entitlements of the doctrine of discovery. It claims to be treaty-based, but it's there in violation of the treaty. The treaty never allowed for them to set up you know, unitary government, colonial government here on these lands. And so, the question of power is really important because the current far-right colonial government wants to wipe out the doctrine. the treaty, sorry. Wants to wipe out the treaty. think lost you again. And now feel like I'm hijacking your hijacking your stream. I'm just going to have look at the chat. Hi Izzy. Thank you very much. We're very much looking forward to having South Africa Lalla Mokhibi Ramose here in Aotearoa, New Zealand in October, where we have gathering on the doctrine of discovery here in Rotorua in October. So, really looking forward to more discussions on this issue over there. The doctrine of stealing, yeah. In fact, the Māori name for the doctrine of discovery is the doctrine Te Ture Tangata Whenua, which is the law of stealing land. And it also means the law of stealing your umbilical cord, which is another way of discussing of discussing it. Kura Tamahaka. hope the sister comes back soon. Can you Hey! Okay. my gosh, can you hear me? can. was just talking to your audience. know. heard you. I'm like, TINA IS DOING SHE IS DOING IT. Thank you. someone said great improvi- You're doing great job improvising. Thank you so much. Someone says, "Please discuss more on this doctrine. Can it Is it Is it still impacting America?" is what someone is saying. So, know that, you know, for lot of people on my Instagram and for many people, they weren't here when we talked about how the doctrine of discovery was cited in 2005, 21 years ago. Tina, could you talk about how the doctrine of discovery, which again was doctrine that was laid out, and you can tell them please tell them who laid the doctrine out and how has this doctrine been used in the United States as recently as 2005? Someone just asked that. want to very quickly go through that and then want us to kind of pivot. Sure. So, in terms of who it was applied when you remember that at the time of the inception of the doctrine of discovery when these people laws came out in 1452 and then 14, 55, 1492. There's probably about 12-ish documents which also include proclamations of discovery and other administrative, documents by the Vatican that collectively create what we call the basis of the doctrine of discovery. And so, with these people laws that that came out, they were for the monarchs. And at the time remember there weren't gov- governments in in Europe. Europe was essentially run by monarchs and the head of power in that at that time was the Pope in the Vatican. So, it started with Pope Nicholas and then it was passed on to subsequent Popes as they came into power. The first was for Alfonso, King Alfonso of Portugal, also known as Alfonso, King of Africa. and Hen- and Henry and Fante. It was then extended to Spain. And mean one clear legacy of this is don't know if anybody's ever wondered why does Brazil speak Portuguese and then the rest of South America speak Spanish? And that's because one of these people laws literally drew line right down the middle of of the Atlantic Ocean and Brazil was on one side of the line and they basically said Portugal, you're going to get everything on this side and Spain, you're going to get everything on this side." And Brazil, because of the shape of the continent, was on the other side of that line. And so, you know, these there are so many legacies to how this has played out. And big part of it is that this was happening during what's called the Age of Discovery. So, it was bad enough that they had these ideas and applied them, but they also had, you know, the maritime technology at that point to travel those ideas around the world. And they had the military technology through guns, cannons, to violently enforce it where they went around the world. And that's what's responsible for it being the foundation blocks for all of these colonies, including the colonies of so-called United States, so-called Canada, all colonized nations. The colonized nations also throughout Mother Africa as well. And so, and so, this is how it became kind of this basis of global power. It also got baked into our intellectual traditions. So, at this time also, you have the scientific revolution and the Enlightenment period, which was basically seeking scientific justification rather than religious justification for maintaining supremacy over non-European peoples. And they developed lot of, you know, things like the social contract, which was written by John Locke, also trading in enslaved peoples and wrote enslavement law and was major colonizer, also wrote the social contract, right? Or developed the social contract, the unwritten rules of relationship between the the crown or government and the people as well. also wrote lot of education kind of philosophy that's embedded in education approaches today. So, it became in the our traditions as well and then became the basis of our global economy so and and corporate behavior as well. So, the blueprint for modern corporations stems from the outsourcing of colonization as the doctrine of discovery grew around the world and became very expensive to maintain by themselves. They outsourced to companies and this became the blueprint for modern corporate empire which is fashioned of private empire. Thank you so much for breaking that down. For you know, there are we know that on the continent of Africa Catholicism is growing on the continent of Africa not so much everywhere else. For you know, for many reasons but of course we've all heard about all the scandals that the Catholic Church has gone through and so want to be careful to not make anyone feel like I'm disrespecting their faith as we go forward with this conversation. With the next question that I'm going to ask you Tina. would say that I'm very proud Christian but my faith empowers me. see myself in the words of the Bible. know that Jesus was born of Palestinian parents and that he hid in Africa for the first part of his life. And so as read the Bible see my people that look like me and have the same values as me reflected in those stories. Jesus was not of German descent. He was not of British descent and that's very important because we know how powerful imagery is and how one of the very powerful tools of colonialism has been to place themselves in the middle of these stories and to place people who don't look like who don't look like them completely outside of it and that's not that's just not the case. do want to ask you for people who are trying to understand okay, these are papal bulls, whatever that word means. It means that the pope gave them permission to go to Africa and all over the world and to enslave, and to objectify, and to take whatever they wanted because those people weren't so-called Christians. my question is, and my question that think the viewers want to know from you, Tina, is what did the Catholic Church get out of it? Was it just that they wrote paper and said, "Here you go, Spain. Here you go, Portugal. Now you're free to go and do whatever you want to do. And we'll be over here praying and doing sacraments." What did they get from that from those papal bulls that were signed almost 600 years ago? Yeah, thank you for that, Chanel. And and think would mention it yesterday, but it think it always helps to reiterate that this is not an anti-Christian discussion. know that it often is framed as one, but it's actually an anti-supremacy discussion. And I'm quite careful to point out that what we're talking about is Euro-Christianity and that this is also product of the combination of Euro-Christianity with Roman imperialism at the time as well. And they swept through Europe you know, eradicating their own earth-based you know, faiths and religions before they went and practiced that everywhere else. And so, the question here in relation to those who practice Christianity to practicing Christians it is not whether or not they would abandon their faith. Nobody's asking that of you per se, but it's just taking this this legacy into consideration, what are the legacies that still exist within faith-based organizations around the power and resource that has been acquired and also some of the language and and ideas so that you can discontinue, that today. And so, in terms of what the Catholic Church got out of this, you know, there's law that really rose to the top through this process that actually began in around the 9th century. It's papal law called just patronatus. And just patronatus was, round specific relationship between churches and crown, the monarchs. and it started off in terms of, we will, there's an exchange between the patron, the people who donate to the church, and the church providing benefits back to those people. At that time, the church was considered the source of divine power and the right to rule. And so, the church would devolve that divine power and the right to rule to monarchs. In return, the monarchs would compensate the church and provide riches to the church. and then throughout the doctrine of discovery, what that looked like was that the church and the crown worked in tandem everywhere they went. So, everywhere that these invaders, conquistadors, explorers, whatever you want to call them on behalf of the monarchs went, they went with holy men. And the holy men were saying, you know, that we're not just going to colonize you, we're here to Christianize you. And if you refuse, if you refuse, then and this is in there's one of the proclamations called Al Requermiento, and it says, "If you should refuse this, we will take your women, and we will take your children, and we will do unto them such mischief as we may if you resist us." So, direct targeting on the sacred members of your communities will occur. And importantly, in the final lines of Al Requermiento, it says, "And all of the ill that shall befall you as result of you resisting shall be your fault and not the fault of the king and those who are applying this of the king and the church. and they also explicitly say that you will submit to the yoke of the cross and the crown. So there is shared relationship between the cross and the crown throughout the age of discovery and the common kind of ceremonial or ritual practices involved you know expressing some kind of either through the use of the of cross or or prayers even Captain Cook Captain James Cook in the later end of utilizing religion to to claim lands on behalf of the crown as well. So so part of it was growing the flock part of it was channeling resources and the Vatican certainly acquired lot of resource out of this project. and that became the foundation of religious wealth as well through Europe you know obviously Euro-Christian religious wealth as well at that time and still remains the basis there's whole lot of native land taken through through these processes that are still being retained by those churches and faith organizations. appreciate you bringing up those important points. the first thing want to say is that it's important to understand why these European powers wanted to go and explore other parts of the world. It wasn't just that they were curious they were looking for money they were looking for something that they could use in order to enrich themselves because you know Portugal was very small country at the time they didn't have many natural resources and they really wanted to kind of let people know who they were. They needed way to set themselves up and they didn't feel like they could do that on their own. And so they went out and found other people's riches and and took from them. And it was the same for Spain. So think again when we think about these empires that had expanded, we have to consider that the people that were leaving Europe weren't leaving because they were having such an amazing time in Europe. They were leaving because they needed to find greener pastures and the only way they were going to find that was to leave Europe and to go to other parts of the world. And then of course these these documents gave the justification for the kind of barbarity that followed for hundreds of years later. When you talked about the role that Christianity has played in colonialism, couldn't help but remember visiting the Cape Coast, Cape Coast Castle or Elmina Dungeon in Ghana and standing at the bottom of that dungeon where there was packed in feces that was 5 in high if not more still to this day and looking straight up and knowing there was peephole there where there's church right by the peephole. So you have you have this huge structure, one of the largest dungeons slave dungeons on the continent is in Ghana. And then once you go you go you go from the dungeon to the ground floor and then you go up one more level and there is church, huge church. So these people were praising whatever God they believe in. It certainly is not the God of Abraham Jacob and Joseph. They were praising whatever God, the God of money, the God of colonialism. And just few feet beneath them are men, women, and children who are being suffocated to death in dungeon. And this is something that went on not for little bit of time, but for hundreds and hundreds of years. And you had European powers who were fighting each other to have possession of these fortified dungeons because these dungeons were the life engine of their economies all these years ago. And just think it's really important to understand that the church worked in tandem with the armies. So, you know, it's either you take the carrot or you take the stick. And for many African countries, you got both. And we've seen how religion has had an even more profound impact on people who have been impacted by colonialism. just really I'm so happy that you brought that up. Yeah, and mean, even today you hear, you know, in so-called United States, this religious rhetoric being placed behind the entitlement to wage warfare on other lands, the way in which religion, violent form of or violent kind of interpretation of religion is being used to justify what is essentially neo-imperial expansion through you know, American war strategies as well. And so, you know, it's never again, this has never really gone away because it's never really been been reckoned with. But, you know, the combined the way in which this was utilized throughout that period had such an impact that it caused climate event. So, throughout the 14 1500s through you know, the taking of of lives from the African continent and the taking of indigenous lives combined, there were so many sources of CO2 taken out of the Earth's biosphere that it caused an imbalance in the biosphere and mini ice age in the in northern Europe occurred that was directly related to what was happening on the African continent and on the circle American continent at that time. The mass amount of death in one short period and that mini ice age was interpreted to be the fault of of so-called witches and initiated the northern European witch trials and it was women who were burnt at the stake and many of those women were indigenous Sami women in places like Norway who were put to the stake and the last remnants of Earth-based religion was then attacked again through through the church. And want to be really clear cuz you raised such an important point. The doctrine of discovery has at its heart always been an economic project that has worn various cloaks in order to empower itself. And in the 14, 1500s, the most powerful cloak was religion. But then it quickly spread to intellectualism and then, you know, economic global economic structures and global legal structures. But those have all been cloaks at its heart. It has always been about economic profit. Thanks for adding that. want to go to the chat because people have been really First of all, Tina, want to give you few minutes because people have been asking, "What is that what is that symbol on her face? Is that tattoo?" John is wanting to know, "Is that tattoo?" know that in many African traditions, people adorn their faces with something called scarification. And this is done at different stages in young in people's lives where you have these beautiful these scarring rituals. know it's all over West Africa and everywhere. And so, think of your tattoo, and you can tell me if that's what it's called, akin to some of the scarifications that we see throughout the continent of Africa. However, don't know very much about Tīna, so if you would not mind talking to the audience about what this is on your on your chin, and what is the what does it represent? Sure. so, the word tattoo actually is Pacific word. It comes from you know, the word tattoo is it is comes from the islands, and it's tradition in that sits right across the Moana Nui Kiwa, also called the Pacific. and in Aotearoa Te Ika-a-Māui, where stay, this is Tā moko, or moko kauae. And the practice is called Tā moko. Similar to tattoo. And so, Tā moko is yeah, it it It is tattoo. It's permanent. Doesn't wash off, and don't apply it every morning. And it is traditional practice. All of my ancestors is particularly my female ancestors wore moko kauae. our male ancestors had what we call mata ora, which is across the entire face. as well. And in my family, we have in within couple of generations, think the last we checked was like 28 or 29 of us who wear facial moko. and it is mark of beauty, but it's also speak it they generally tell stories. So, my one tells story they tell stories about your roles, your responsibilities, the place that where you're born in the family, your right to speak, your jobs. Some of the references are cultural, so mine relates to the fact that come from the whale riding people of the East Coast as well, and it's connection to our ancestors. It was practice that colonizers tried to wipe out in many ways, and then my uncle, whose house I'm in right now, was part of the movement to actually return it from the 8-1980s, 1990s to restore this tradition, and now there are thousands of us all over Aotearoa who have proudly reclaimed the tradition of wearing our facial moko as statement and commitment to our ancestors that we will remain here, we will remain visible, we will remain loud on our lands. Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for just giving us that history of lesson. Michael Davis says, "Tribal traditional identification." And agree with you on that. Alfred says, "Thanks for wonderful program. We have many Indians in Sierra Leone to settle and invest." I'm not sure exactly. and then Alfred says, "God is wiser than every plan of mankind." So, thank you for that. was doing some reading in in in some of the work that you've done, and you talked about lateral Well, first of all, go back. You talked about how Europeans European settlers wanted to make difference between the Maori, the Aboriginals, the Chinese, and you know, there was hierarchy that they had created in New Zealand, where the Maori were thought to be closest to them. So, they were better. And then there was, you know, this hierarchy where, you know, don't know if it was the Aboriginals that were kind of at the bottom. And so, in doing this, you had some Maori who really appreciated it and and thought that it was good thing to kind of be considered as being more akin to these white settlers, even though these people had invaded the land, stolen the land, destroyed the land, didn't have respect for nature. And wanted to talk little bit about the psyche of that because when think about that, can't help but to also think about how colonialism and white supremacist ideals have affected other communities across the continent of Africa. We can look at the Rwandan genocide and see how Europeans pitted one group against another, the Tutsis against the other group. We can also look at what's happening in South Africa right now. And we look at the Afrophobia that we see. This idea that African people from outside of South Africa are taking jobs away. but we don't see the same kind of frustration, anger directed at the European settlers who welcomed themselves to South Africa, took all of the good land, enslaved, mur- mean, you know, murdered on grand scale, and totally took this land. And I'm just wanting you to talk little bit about what lateral racism is and to talk about how colonialism and white supremacy shows up not only for the white settlers that come, but how do they then infect those people who they come in contact with with that kind of delusion as well? Sure thing. so, within doctrine of discovery discourse, what we also know was happening at the time of the creation of those people balls, as mentioned earlier, was the scientific revolution. And there is this fellow called Carl Linnaeus. Carl Linnaeus wound up developing you know, basically the order of nature. And it was again this linear hierarchy. And he himself has said that he sourced that linear hierarchy of nature off this religious concept called the great chain of being. And the great chain of being puts, you know, white man with beard in the sky. And then underneath him the archangels, and then underneath them the angels, then underneath them the pope as God's representative on earth. And then the clergy, and then the mon- monarchs and aristocrats, and then the commoners. And then the realm of animals, two-legged animals, four-legged animals, mammals. crustaceans and shellfish. And then scaled animals such as lizards and and snakes. And then elements. You know, which is for many indigenous populations, our deities, our faiths, our nature-based faiths are connected to elements and connected to to nature in general. And then the realm of demons. And indigenous peoples and non-European peoples were seen between the two-legged animal realm and the realm of demons. Various spaces in there. But never in the realm of humans. And that was then after Carl Linnaeus built the modern biological classification system of genus, species, and whatnot. So we still use that today. He built it off that. But then also it was used to create hierarchy of of humans as well. And so the racial hierarchy was built off that. Now when this was applied in the process of colonization, what they would also say is that some groups who are never going to be at the same level as European humans within this hierarchy, but some of them can sit relatively higher or lower than each other. And they would apply that in every indigenous nation they go to, they'd say here in Aotearoa, well it's the Maori who are little bit higher than the others. Or on Turtle Island, they also said that to indigenous peoples. But the one of the tricks in that one was that in for some indigenous nations, what they said is you can be closer to Europeans if you take on our agricultural practices and that includes utilizing enslaved labor as well. That will make you closer to Europeans and then we won't oppress you as much. And so in this way you saw this kind of practice of what we call you know lateral racism which is applying that racist hierarchy by people who will never be at the same level of Europeans within that framework. But having them utilize and acquire relative privilege through being violent to each other. And what we also know is that it's easier to be violent you know crossways and punch down punch across and punch down because you're able to leverage off the embedded power system to get the colonizer to come in behind you and punch across and punch down as well. And so that has been very effective tactic you know noted by Cesaire, noted by Fanon, noted by many anti racist thinkers and thought leaders for for many years now. Glen Coulthard writes about it as well. And so the lateral violence absolutely tool through which groups kind of acquire relative privilege, but ultimately it's tool that reiterates this racial hierarchy which is complete construct anyway. It reiterates and reinforces that that hierarchy will be in place which will always have European power entrenched at the top. That's the way that lateral and And and that's the case it will always reinforce the false legitimacy of Europeans taking land and and holding power over other groups. It's just so interesting how, you know, this very small group of people, Europeans only make up very small portion of the population, have been able to have this ideology, this this mindset that has had such profound family devastating impact on people, on native communities, literally all over the world. and and have someone in the comments, Katie, she says that she is from South Africa. She's an active member of what's of what is being seen as Afrophobia. don't know what she means by she's an active member of what is being seen as Afrophobia. Does that mean that she is out there protesting immigrants or African people coming to South Africa, I'm not sure. But she she says that what said about you know, Afrophobia and lateral racism is not true. And so I'm I'm interested to know what her thoughts are, but she she hasn't responded. So if she does, then would love to kind of go into that. but, you know, when we she says someone says the the main problem with Africa is our leaders. Europeans are doing their best to grant us funds. This is what he believes. But it embezzlement is the order of the day. That's very interesting take, Alfred. Europeans are doing their best to grant us funds. I'm sure that the IMF and the World Bank are doing everything they can to grant you funds at the at the absolute worst possible arrangements with the highest interest rates and with lots of austerity attached to it. Absolutely. that's that's very interesting perspective, but do want to say that, you know, the the the idea that African leaders have been lacking and that there are issues, serious issues with many African leaders, is true. don't think that we can dis- you know, not think about the role that the West has played in getting rid of African leaders who had the mindset of raising up the nation and wanted the very best for the people that that they were governing and placed and killed those people and sabotaged their time in office and then placed puppet heads of state in place of those very effective ones. mean, the list goes on and on. Kwame Nkrumah, Thomas Sankara, of course Patrice Lumumba, whose body was dissolved in acid and there was only one tooth left that was just given to his family few years ago. we can look at what's happening in the Sahel region right now with Mali having this huge aggressive push by they say terrorist organizations, but of course the terrorist organizations have said that they have been trained by the French and the Ukrainians. And so we have to look at the role that Western powers are playing in the upheaval and the so-called terrorism that's happening throughout these regions all over the continent and what is the reason for them wanting to maintain Africa's poverty, to maintain the instability. We know that France is completely dependent on the resources in the Sahel region and in the Francophone region and that they've never really given up their their their arms in the financial sectors in those countries. And without those 14 African countries Africa France would fall into and this isn't my words, these are the words from one of their past presidents fall into third world country. mean they would immediately not be sitting on the world stage. They wouldn't be, you know, there at all. So, just want to put that out there. Someone says their help is disguised dependency, another form of enslavement. think that's really important thing to say. Yeah, and mean we need to also remember the Bretton Woods system of the World Bank International Monetary Fund. Also, which extends into the World Trade Organization as well, also stems out of this history. They were formed and and interestingly enough, they were formed one year before the United Nations were formed. So, before we were talking about how to maintain world peace, we were talking about how to maintain economic privilege of Western nations and the formation of the Bretton Woods system drops out of that. At the Bretton Woods conference when they developed how power would be wielded throughout those institutions, there were only two nations with effective speaking rights. That was so-called United States and the United Kingdom and it's called, you know, the passing of the colonial neo-imperial torch from the UK to the so-called USA. There are legacies for that still existing today which which speaks to the fact that the president of the World Bank is always appointed by the so-called United States president. And the fact that the voting rights on the governance board of the World Bank is not one nation one vote, it's one dollar one vote. And so the people the nations who are able to pour the most resource into that are by and large colonial nations colonial and colonizing nations who have extracted the capital to pour into that system from indigenous nations in the first place who will never have the capital to be able to purchase that kind of influence within that system. And so, you know, the kinds of loan policies that they have mean that in order to accept these loans, which let's be really clear, we're talking about some of the most resource-rich nations on the planet who are then, you know, crippled through economic extraction, through colonial economic extraction. The reason that they are crippled is through colonialism, and then they're only granted loans from organizations using the money extracted from them in the first place. We'll loan your own money back to you on the condition that you will not impede what they call free trade, which is allowing overseas corporations to come in and plunder your corporate landscape or your economic landscape, that you will not put in place protective laws around your environment, that you will not put in climate positive laws, that will you will not put in laws that protect indigenous peoples. So long as you can agree to not put any of those protective laws, and basically keep yourself open for continued colonial plunder, we will loan your own money back to you. And and you and you have to agree to grow the kinds of things that they want you to grow, not the kinds of things that are going to benefit your population. And for some people who don't know what the Bretton Woods Conference was, want to read it really quickly. The Bretton Woods Conference was 1944 meeting that did that it essentially designed the modern global financial system, and it was built to keep colonized nations at the bottom. And think it's really important to point out that in 1944, mit these African nations were still colonized. None of these nations had been freed so to speak, which means that the world powers saw that the writing was on the wall. This was after World War II. They understood that imperialism was had become out of favor and that eventually these countries were going to break break free and they couldn't afford for these countries to invest in themselves because the entire process, the entire system at which they've been able to enrich themselves has been built upon the subjugation and the extraction of wealth from these countries. And so they had to find another way to basically re-colonialize these countries before these countries had chance to get away from them. And so when we say, "Why is Africa still in the place that it's in right now? They've been free for 50 or 60 years." But then you read about the Bretton Woods conference and you begin to understand. Actually, the architecture for their dependency and for their poverty was something that was structured decades before they actually were free, which talks to you so much about how intentional the racism is and how important the poverty is. We look at poverty as something that happens because of person's inability to work hard, you know, be creative. We don't look at poverty as tool, as very important tool that's being used. And that's exactly what it is. We have to think about what poverty is and who benefits from impoverished communities. Carolyn Kennedy says, "Blessings to you sisters. Keep shining and allow truth to be spoken. It's time of awakening of the ancients, okay? Wisdom of the divine, okay?" This sister is just talking about it's time. It is it's time of expansion of divine intelligence. Africa is rising quickly. It's everywhere. Not only on the motherland. Blessings. Watcher165 says, "Well said." wish this was way to actually lay out the whole story to you as Okay, someone didn't really finish their thought, but think that people are really happy to hear these kind of perspectives because unfortunately we've been told one story about Africa and it's just story about how terrible Africa is doing. We don't hear about who is benefiting from Africa's poverty and how are we going to move beyond that? Is it possible to break the chains of colonialism? To for Africa to come from underneath these kind of oppressive financial schemes. We have it coming on every side. We have Western powers that are pouring money into terrorist organizations that are destabilizing countries throughout the continent. How is it that Africa will ever free itself from colonialism and from imperialism? Yeah, think when we start thinking about, you know, what is it that you know, what chance do we have to overcome this? Because it becomes really large and often come across this when I'm doing education on the doctrine of discovery is that people are like, my gosh, it almost feels too big and it feels too entrenched and too systemic." But actually we're very young in this journey and you know, our indigenous ways of thinking are not just confined to our lived experience, you know, we we're taught to think intergenerationally, to think from ancestor to descendant. And so, you know, there's definitely work for us to do in our time and lot of that is speaking the truth. So, you know, for however many eons before colonization, we existed, we had our own governance, we had our own sources of rights, we had our own relationships and ways of viewing relationships. 500 years does feel like and seem like long long time, but in the greatest scheme of things the time preceding that obviously was much longer. And then, of course, when we're thinking about our future generations, we can't just give up and say, "Well, this is how it's been for this really drop in the bucket, and say that's how it's always going to be." One of the tricks of colonialism, my mental papa, Mona Jackson, used to say is that the first incarceration is the incarceration of the mind. And and it's the the idea that you cannot see beyond the colonial walls that are placed around you. And this story can also be told as the story and history of incarceration, because the colonial project has always always necessitated and demanded the containment of indigenous peoples, whether or not that's through chattel slavery, or indigenous disposition, or reservation systems, or land block systems, or telling us what it is to be truly indigenous, what it is to be truly African, through Western education system. These are all forms of containment and incarceration, and they function to have chilling effect on your reach for liberation, because if you don't really believe liberation is possible, you'll stop reaching for it. So, that is the first kind of colonial fiction, which is what my book is about, colonial fictions. The first colonial fiction is trying to convince you that it's not worth reaching for liberation, that it's not possible. And we have to resist that by continuing to vision for liberated future for all of our peoples and for our Mother Earth, as well. And so, you know, keeping in mind that that is what's happened, and that it's we're actually very young in the journey of decolonization, it's only from, you know, movements like the civil rights movement, like the Pan-African liberation movement, like the Free Palestine movement, even environmental, women's rights, all all these movements together from the 60s, 70s, and 80s. We're only talking like this is now lived experience. This These These are the movements that have created the context for destructing colonial legitimacy. want to I'm sorry, finish. No, no, you're right. was just going to say but prior to that people assumed colonial structures were legitimate. And so again, very young in removing its legitimacy. And then the next stage is and then what does legitimacy look like? So we're actually quite young in the journey. And you know, and you've laid out you you called for three steps to dismantle the doctrine of discovery. You said that first an independent indigenous truth forum is needed, rescinding the papal bulls, and the return of indigenous lands. For African nations, how realistic is that third demand, the return of the land? When so much of Africa's land and resources are still effectively controlled by Western corporations and governments. We look at place like Namibia. country like Namibia who suffered the first Holocaust, the the second Reich before World before World War before Hitler, we had the Nama and Herero people who were 70 to 80% of their population was totally wiped out. And today in Namibia, you have Germans and other Europeans who own more than 70% of the arable land. And Namibians are pretty much staying on reservations in their own land. How What are the chances? How do African people begin to reclaim their land? Well, think one of the first things is that you need to start with speaking the truth and that's the the form of the truth speaking form. As whether or not you believe something to be achievable even within your lifetime, you still need to speak You know, people say speaking truth to power, but it's also speaking power into the truth. And the more power that you speak into that truth, the more achievable it comes even if that is an intergenerational process. And so people And one of the other things we know is that as we build these systems, land back is perceived in different ways by different people. But one of the issues is that it needs reckoning with the material consequence Uh-oh. think this time it was Tina's. Okay. Okay, you're back with the material It needs reckoning. You said it's going to need reckoning with the material consequences of of colonialism. It needs rec And so what that looks like hear you now. don't know if others can. I'm going to go to the comments really quickly, Tina, until can hear you. Yeah. Someone says, "Thank you, ladies. These are the kinds of discussions that we need for change." Someone is saying, "They're only here to look at the beautiful sisters." Caroline Kennedy says it's the silent revolution that's happening everywhere. don't know if this was already something that read. Do have TikTok account? do, and I'll make sure you get Tina's account as well if she has one. Are you Tina, can hear you? Can you hear me now? No, can't. still can't. Robert says, "Excellent discussion. can't hear you. can see you." but they can hear me. But you need to hear me so we can have discussion. don't know what to do. Should leave and you go out and you come back in, then I'll make sure to let you in. So Tina's going to be back. Watcher says that farmers relying on Western-made chemicals just to keep producing. Respect to Levi, I'm not going to even try to pronounce the last name Mwan Wasa who understood the danger of that dependency and refused to accept it at the time. Yes. Absolutely amazing. Historical knowledge of the systems erected is key to dismantling and keeping unified front for trade leverage. All right, Tina's going to be coming back joining us momentarily. They repeated it. Okay, we're good to go now, Tina. We're good to go. so, yeah, so in terms of, you know, the material reality of what land back happens, think yeah, first and foremost that need it it that's that's challenge on material reckoning with what has with what has been done. And just keeping in mind that many of, for instance, religious institutions and Crown or colonial government institutions also still retain lot of stolen land and still base themselves off the back of these, you know, history of enslavement of peoples and continuing. So, mean, the whole incarceration system you know, complex can be seen as an extension as I'm sure you know and speak about often of of the enslavement system as well. And they still run off the profits of that. It it it's so interesting that you said that and you know, when when travel throughout the continent, I'm always, you know, went to the Congo, went to library and noticed that there were books, history books written by the Belgians. The Belgians and thought this is crazy. You know, when go to went to Ghana, was in the Cape Coast Castle or in the Cape Coast region, which is fishing region, but it stands in the shadow of the largest slave dungeon on the in West Africa. And one of the people who was with said that they didn't even know what that building was. They'd never been taught that this was slave dungeon. And, you know, when go to some of the schools in West Africa, still see that these are schools that are being maintained by the Presbyterian Church, by different Catholic Church, the same churches that played that stood right beside the conquistadors who came there and enslaved these people. And, you know, there was in your book you talked about the importance of tearing down these institutions. You write that Hold on for moment. I'm trying to make sure that have the right You You write that maintaining colonial power structures requires requires purposeful acts of maintenance through education, media, currency, place names. And thought that that was really powerful because Europeans understand how important it is for to educate the next generation in order to make sure that they remain subdued and don't rise up. How do Africans and indigenous people disrupt that maintenance when the system controls so many of the platforms, including think one of the most important ones, education? This is right. mean, you know, Arundhati Roy talks about the mechanics of empire and how if you really, you know, the greatest challenge to empire is to lay it bare before the world, to strip off its cloak of benevolence so that people can understand how ugly and brutal it is and refuse to stand by its side. And the colonizer has also understood how important it is to future-proof its own project by creating populations that support it, that endorse it, that see it as benevolent, that see it as inevitable, as well. And so, you know, as mentioned before, John Locke is one of the architects of Western educational theory. And he also wrote the social contract, the unwritten law of relationship between government and the people. And so and inherent within that are these ideas that education is structured to create good, compliant citizens. That is the core purpose of of Lockean education theory. And so and so you can see that education has had very strong role in future-proofing the the colonial project, as has just these constant reiterations, who it is that features on currency notes, who it is that gets holiday, who it is that, you know, you sing and that you pledge allegiance to, you know, who it is that gets consistently reiterated in every waking moment in implicit and explicit ways as being the legitimate holders of power. And with that, the legitimate holders of resource, as well. And so it starts with these discussions because as big as empire seems, empire has fallen many times throughout history. And the times that it's fallen has generally come down to the will of the people. movement of is what has made empire fall. And what moves forward will of the people is the concept of justice. It's the concept that you are undergoing particular injustice. So when that is taken into the hearts and the minds of the people, then that's the one thing that empire truly fears, movement of the people. And think that that's something that is going to have to happen. You know, Africa has the youngest population on the earth. think the average age of an African person is 19 years old. 19 years old. And we have young people on the continent of Africa who are no longer in silos. They have their phones, they can see what's happening on the other side of the world, and they don't want to live the same lives that their parents have lived. They want to live the life that they envision themselves having. It's don't think that people necessarily want to be billionaire, but people do want to live good life, and why shouldn't they when they have all of the resources at their disposal that other countries are benefiting from, and they are being forced to stay in poverty. want to go to the comments and read what some people are saying. Lanre says, "No matter how you tell our people in Africa the truth, they are not going to be interested in these issues. They are more interested in Western propaganda, lies, and less important things like music and football, cars, clothes, and less important things." think it's so important to talk about the values that are being exported, the Western values that are being exported, and and and those values are the values of materialism. this whole idea that if you want to be happy, you need to buy more stuff. And totally agree with you that the only way that Africa and that that the diaspora is going to be free from the oppression that it's suffering under is to not adopt the values of the oppressor. And so, yeah. was also going to add to that that, you know, alongside material benefit, it's material individual benefit as well. And individualism is big part of that exported value as well, which is just can always considering not how are my people doing, but how am doing personally. And so, that individualism is huge part of that value system that needs to be critiqued and dismantled. Exactly. Could be And you know, it's so funny cuz even when think about European colonialist, you know, they themselves individually would not have been able to exploit and and the world the way that they did. They'd work together and they also understood that they needed to exploit other people's knowledge bases in order to be able to create the agricultural markets that they were they exploited the the brilliance of West African people who had intimate knowledge of cultivating rice and cotton and and dying indigo and and all of these other methods that that were exported. So, this idea of rugged individualism is lie. It's just It's just lie. But, think that people blindly want to believe that and I'm not sure why. It also is true that African-Americans and us in the African diaspora would never have survived the barbarity of enslavement, Jim Crow, if we had been individuals. There was just absolutely no way. We had to have community. And think that what we see in the United States is the United you know, the government understood that the only reason for the Civil Rights Movement being so impactful, it was because you had black families who were going to the community centers and to their churches and putting five and 10 and two and three dollars in the offering plate and coming together as community and doing what they could do to support the efforts of those people who were on the front lines of that fight. So, again, we have to be really careful to not adopt the same values as the West because our values are not theirs. and and nor should they be. But, nor should they be. And but this is really important part when you speak about leadership that fails the movement. It's when these these ideas, when we're not critiquing the systems, the intellectual systems, the economic systems, and the political systems of the West, we miss the point that many of those ideas and systems have been absorbed by non-Westerns in non-Western spaces as well. And so, this is really important point that's been raised in the chat is that people are saying, "But African leaders." But can also say in Aotearoa, Maori some Maori leaders are still perpetuating this harm as well. Not because they themselves are, you know, just colonizers like, you know, Europeans, but because they have absorbed these Western European values and are now projecting them out internally against their own and laterally against other, you know, mutually colonized peoples as well. agree. You know, think about someone like, Lord Jesus, the black man that's sitting on the US Supreme Court, who continues to can't remember his name. don't know why, but he's Gullah Geechee. You know, he he's someone from the Carolinas who benefited from the Civil Rights Movement. And, you know, the doors that these Civil Rights Movement leaders fought and bled to open up, he walked right through those doors. And instead of keeping those doors open for the next generation, he is doing everything in his power every single day to close those doors and put padlock on it and make sure that nobody else gets through. And look at that behavior as another example of what happens when you adopt the values of your oppressor. don't don't view Well, that that might be little controversial. Maybe I'll save it until I'm sure want to say the right thing, but it's just really sad to to see how he's used his education and all of the hard fought freedoms to make it incredibly difficult for the next generation to be able to reach those heights. want to read few more comments in the chat. Hassage says, "Thank you all. This is great talk we needed in our everyday life." Katiso says, believe that the first step is actually having Africans at the table being part of the conversation." Well, that should go without saying. Africans should be the only ones at the table when it comes to what's happening in in Africa. As far as I'm concerned, they should be the foremost people at the table for sure. The Ethiopians were left out because of Christianity was in practice when they were discovered. That's not true. The Italians tried their very best to colonize Ethiopia. They tried on several couple different occasions. The Ethio and they they dropped all kind of terrible chemical warfares on the Ethiopian people. They were not successfully colonized, but it was not for lack of trying. The Italians certainly did try. And the Ethiopian people have suffered on in many other ways, but they were not successfully colonized if that's what you're trying to say. That's true. Economically colonized through the same Britain was the system. Exactly. Exactly. I'm so happy you pointed that out. They were economically colonized and think that when we look at the value system of the West, we understand that you know, the economics is really the whole point of it all. It's getting to the money. It's extracting the resources. It's being able to dictate the policy and that's exactly what they've been able to to do. I've been pushing an artist movement to propel black excellence and would like to continue pushing this and you've been motivating that sparking me even more. Thank you so much. As you Jabulu Jabullo, I'm sure I'm totally messing up your name. Please forgive me. enjoy your content, says green my tears. May God continue to bless and protect you, sister. All right, Tina, this one's for you. Tina, thank you for your sincere heart to be part of the change in South Africa where all we've always had community of white people that were against apartheid. Thank you, Tina. They see you as white person, Tina. how do you feel about that? that was good. That's nice. She spent the She spent the last hour talking about, you know, her indigenous ancestry, but understand. totally get it. we all have common enemy. Yes, and his name is Clarence Thomas. Thank you so much. For some reason, just totally went blank. Thanks, Michael. Yes, Clarence Thomas is his name. So many So many greetings and blessings to all. Thank you, queens, for sharing this wonderful knowledge. these are the kinds of forums that will set us free, first mentally then otherwise, says Baba Ramsey. Tina, want you to have last word. When you kind of leave and just leave our viewers here with some information that will help them to be empowered as they move forward and work towards the freedoms that we all want to see happen not only on the continent of Africa, but in every place where colonialism and imperialism has reared its very ugly and genocidal resource-extracting head. Thank you, Chanel, and thank you to everybody. also, it's just been you know, this has been For me, it's 9:30 in the morning here, and this is the best breakfast ever to start my day off with. So, it's been great. guess it's just an extension of what we were talking about earlier in terms of the liberation of your mind first and foremost. And many of our liberational leaders throughout, you know, the last few decades have talked about the importance of liberating your mind because it is, you know, the first form of incarceration is to remove from your mind the ability to vision, to see beyond. And our artists and our youth are so pivotal to the movements because of that. So, the ability to vision new radical future must be protected and must sit at the heart because if you want anything that's going to keep you driving through this, you know, you know, through the colonial traps, moving towards liberation for you and your future descendants, it's that the belief of this is possible, that this is just, that this is the righteous pathway to walk. And that must be have structural integrity inside of you. So, that means you have to educate yourself on what history really means. One of our first colonizers here in Aotearoa infamously said the Māori are dying and the duty of good colonizer is to smooth down their dying pillow and therefore history will have nothing to reproach us with. So, he's talking about kind colonial genocide and that they're the only reason to be kind about it is that history, you want history to look back kindly upon you. And we can take from that and we can learn the fact that they don't want you to learn the real history. They don't want you to learn the mechanics of colonization and cuz because this is pivotal to them maintaining it. So, educate yourself in order to commit yourself heart and soul and mind to the liberation of our people and it will also lead to the liberation of other peoples and our planet as well. Thank you, Chanel. Thanks so much for just giving of your time, your scholarship. You've spent years and years studying this out and it's just been delight having you sharing everything that you have learned and know with this audience. Tina has Patreon. I'm going to make sure to go ahead and put put her Patreon link in the comments. Once just give me few minutes. She also has book that's available for purchase. You'll also find that linked in the comments and hopefully this won't be the last time that she is on. but we're going to stay in touch. So you all please go to her Patreon, sign up, purchase the book. You know, we have to study to show ourselves approved like Tina says because that is what they don't want. They don't want you to be able to pass this knowledge down and to understand exactly what they've done. They move in shadows. And so we don't want that. We want to add light to all of the dark places all over the world and add light to all of the things that have been done because we have to honor the memories of our ancestors who have been affected by the kind of inhumanity and barbarity that's been exacted against them by these imperialist colonialist powers. So thank you so much Tina for your time. I've enjoyed it so much and look forward to us doing this again soon. Absolutely. Look forward to it. And thank you for all the work you do, Chanel. All right. Okay, you guys. I'm going to be putting up the video for the day very shortly. appreciate your time and I'll be in touch with you guys. And if you guys didn't know, now you know. Thank you all so much. Just minute. I'm in now.