Ancient Rome Egypt

This episode of Let's Dig Deeper podcast is supported by the University of Copenhagen School of Archaeology. Welcome dear listener to Let's Dig Deeper, the podcast where we talk all about archaeology, history, art, and culture. My name is Zined Harun. am student of classical archaeology here at the University of Copenhagen. And in this podcast, I'm going to take you along for interviews with some of the delightful people working in the field. And we'll talk with archaeologists, historians, professionals, and beyond. And hopefully, we'll learn more about the past in the process. And today, I'm joined by the amazing Christina Bulo Clausen. Welcome to the studio, Christina. Many thanks. And Christina, this episode has been long time coming. We've been trying to schedule this since season 1, but miracle has happened and here we are. And I'm super happy to have you here. And Christina, you are an expert in the relationship between Egypt and Rome and you have your PhD in classical archaeology from here at the Saxo Institute of the University of Copenhagen where you're also lecturer. Your research especially focuses on Egypt outside of Egypt, in particular in Benventum and in Rome. And today we're talking about exactly that. Our topic is the relationship between two ancient superpowers, namely Egypt and Rome. And before we really dig into it, we should just quickly define what we mean when we're talking about ancient Egypt today. Because the ancient Egyptians were around much earlier than the Romans. So where do we find ourselves chronologically speaking when we're talking about Egypt and Rome today? Yes, today the focus will be centered in the first century BC and also the first century AD around the birth of Christ would say. Yeah. So it's the last century contacts are intensifying between Egypt and Rome in the 1st century BC and then at the end of the first century there's the annexation. Egypt becomes Roman province and then yeah naturally relations get closer in the first century AD would say and Egypt stays Roman province for centuries. So once it's annexed it's Roman province for many years after. So it's mainly the 1st century BC and then the 1st century AD that I'm specializing in. Yes. Yes. So that's what we're going to talk about today. And with that defined, let's dig deeper. So now we have Egypt and we have Rome. How does that become Egypt and Rome? And when do the two superpowers first start interacting? And is superpowers even really the right word to use here? Well, think you could call them superpowers. We know also in the hellistic period already in the 4th century it comes to an end with the Egyptian pharaohs and Egypt is conquered after the death of Alexander the great in 323 in the end of the 4th century it's conquered by Greek dynasty called these of Egypt and they rule for like more than like almost 300 years and it is standing on the shoulders of they they are communicating both with the old Egyptian tradition but also in new you could say Greek visual language that is more their own because they came from Greek traditional culture could say so it's mix already from the 4th century of Egyptian and Greek culture and then the Roman comes in also gradually with also ceasing Greece in the 2n century BC and then as told you before things get intensifies in the 1st century BC between Rome Rome and Egypt. But they are two superpowers. Egypt at this point in the first century BC is one of the last independent states around the Mediterranean. Everything else would say has been conquered already by the Romans. So we have the last ruler. Well, it ends up being Cleopatra, the famous Cleopatra. She is the last of these and she is in charge of this independent Egyptian state in the mid 1st century BC. But there were you know already in the Henistic period diplomatic connections between Rome and Alexandria. Roman Egypt you could say. So of course they were in contact. Rome was deeply dependent on the corn supplies from Egypt already you know in the Hellenistic period. Okay. So there has been few initial interactions between the two mostly some distant trade and some diplomatic interactions. But then we get to the time when Egypt and Rome really gain connection which is as you say during the 1st century BCE and this is during the time of such famous people as Julius Caesar, Cleopatra as you've already mentioned and Pompei and I'm sure most of our listeners recognize the names of some of these people. What events transpired during their lifetimes? Well, lot. It's time of political tumal you could say. It's uneasy times both for the Roman Republic in Rome, but also for the thomeic dynasty in Egypt. It's the time of the Roman generals. Caesar is famous for his conquest of Gaul, what we know as France. And he competed with other people as Kasus and also Pompei the Great, who also had at least Pompei great military victories in the luggage, you could say. So they wanted more power and they form like trium virat we call it. They have special powers for period of time and they agree to divide the provinces between them and also they consulate the most prominent post in the Roman state and they do that secure of themsel and their military power but it's not really the sense the logic of republic to have strong men like that. so they compete and they also end up disagreeing and fighting each other and that actually leads Pompe the great he on the run and he see refugees in Egypt. Egypt at this point as said is free state so he tried to find support among the Egyptians and the Egyptian rulers but also in Egypt it's troubles time. The Farro is young boy dividing power with his sister. Thoromy 13, power is divided between him and his sister Cleopatra. And they don't agree either. They don't die. No. So lot is happening. It's uneasy times, you could say, both in Egypt, but also in Rome. And that leads to this conflict at the early stage between Caesar and Pompei. And Pompei, as you say, he flees to Egypt. He's seeking the protection of the pharaoh there who is Tommy the 13. This young boy Pharaoh who's sharing power with his sister Cleopatra. And Tommy does something bit unexpected because Pompei is followed by Caesar. Caesar persecutes him all the way to Egypt. And when Caesar gets there, Tommy the 13 supposedly delivers the head of Pompei to Caesar who instead of being pleased that his political rival was now dead, was instead absolutely mortified that Pompei died at the hands of foreign ruler. So what does Caesar's reaction, this whole situation, what does this tell us about the relationship between Egypt and Rome at this point in time? Yes, this is story we know from the the written sources and it's said that his reaction was very yeah he was angry he didn't like this he was at the time console of Rome Pompei and this is no way to treat console and Egypt also ruler-wise was completely different thing than Rome although we have these strong men struggling for power they were also true to the republic Republican regime that had long history in Rome and in Egypt it was completely different because there was sole ruler and that was the pharaoh. In this case he divided power with his sister but still it was kingdom you could say. So when when they try to please Caesar by presenting him the head of his enemy his reaction is kind of the inverse of what they expected because he was Roman console. And not to forget, he had also been married to Caesar's daughter, Julia. Yeah. So he he was family to Cesar, you could say, also. So it was personal and political. Yes. Both personal and political. It was it ended up being strategically stupid thing for the Egyptians, but they think they thought they were actually doing the right thing, pleasing Caesar, presenting him the head of his enemy, doing him favor. Yeah. Doing him favor. But it turned out quite the opposite. And think it was because he had he was not nobody in Rome. He was popular guy Pompei in Rome. He was console and he had been married. Julia Caesar's daughter died in childbirth, but he had been married to Caesar's only child. so they were family. So it was severe attack also for for Caesar. But one thing that did happen that would kind of spur forward the chain of events is that when Caesar came to Egypt, he met someone in particular. So let's talk little bit about Cleopatra, who is arguably one of the most famous people from antiquity in general, let alone ancient Egypt. She had really interesting relationship with Caesar, who fathered one of her sons, Cesarian or little Caesar, also known as Tommy the 15th. And the story goes that Caesar took her and their son to Rome while he was still married to Kalpernia. Not that the Romans really minded this, but the Romans did mind Cleopatra. They didn't particularly like her. Why was this? Well, the short answer would be because she was woman with power. would say that could be one explanation. She was free independent ruler of free independent state and she was woman and she came from culture that was very different from the Roman culture you could say. think there's certain degree of you know also this thing about what you don't really understand what you don't know it's easier it's perhaps becoming it's easier to describe as being dangerous somehow you know so there's an element of they didn't really know what to do with this powerful woman from this strange culture far away yeah fear of the foreign fear of the foreign what was known in Rome think was particular particularly this thing about that they worshiped animals, animal gods and that was barbarious thing for Roman you know they didn't understand that and they were thinking describing her with very harsh words and think part of this could be her position close to Caesar and in that also reflecting bit of critique of Caesar and what was he actually planning with all this power and this child cesarian not making things better would say. Yeah. Although, as you said, they were this thing about having child with another woman was perhaps not the biggest scandal as such. But still, he was potential threat to the Roman state, Caesar himself, but of course also his heir. And this heir was not just nobody. He was like son also of the queen of Egypt. So this constellation was source of unease. you could say what was going to happen, who was she and what did she want in Rome, why was she there with all this it's also often described as very luxurious entrance she made in Rome and yeah all bad things in way came out of Egypt or or the east you could say from Roman and one of her harsh critiques were person like Cicero famous politician and orator who described her We know some descriptions from his letters and speeches and he was not very keen of having her on Roman soil. No, that that's that's nice way of putting it that he wasn't very keen on her. But the thing with Cleopatra and Caesar, it really did, as you say, create lot of political turmoil in Egypt and in Rome in particular. But some years would pass by and then in 44 B.CE something very significant happens. Caesar was famously assassinated and Cleopatra, now without clear Roman patron, stepped into new relationship, romantic relationship with Marcus Antonius or Mark Anthony around 43 B.CE. And Mark Anthony had been Caesar's chief general and right-hand man. and his relationship with Cleopatra deeply offended one of the new guys on the scene, Octavian, Caesar's nephew turned adoptive son, who was soon to be the first Roman emperor and rename himself Augustus. And he repeatedly bashed Mark Anthony for his relationship with the Egyptian queen. What exactly did Octavian have against Cleopatra? Was it some of the same things that we've already talked little bit about? Yes. And what is actually quite sometimes forget but it's quite crazy in way that Cleopatra was in Rome when Caesar was murdered. Yeah. So she didn't attend the murder but she was there with her son. actually didn't know that she was she was physically in Rome. She was physically in Rome in the winter of 44 and Caesar was murdered in mid March. So she was there and had to make new plans. She made well quick decision decision and you you know she was the political climate after the murder of Caesar was chaotic you know there was crisis and what was going to happen you know so it was quite critical and she quickly understood she was clever woman and she quickly understood that okay how should play my card right now have some interest in keeping Egypt an independent state and that was actually also one of The reason she was there to negotiate how the future of her kingdom would be well because the Romans was thinking of reorganizing the provinces in the east. Yeah. So she wanted to obtain her independence. But then when she found out that Octaven was the adopted son, adopted heir of Caesar and not her own son by Caesar Cesarion, she understood, okay, perhaps should just get back to Egypt. So she left Rome in haste and traveled back to Alexandria. Okay. Leaving chaotic Rome behind. And then we have new formation of new triomeard actually between as you said Octavian and Mark Anthony and third guy called Lipio. Yeah. The third guy that no one ever really remembers. And they convene to avenge the murder of Caesar. Yeah. And they are successful in doing that. But then again after they actually had joined forces they also divide the provinces between them and then they quickly disagree. You know what happened was that Anthony got the east okay the eastern provinces Octavian the western provinces including Rome. So he had his power base in Rome. While Mark Anthony, he went east and thought not helped but he had his power base you could say in Alexandria by the court of Cleopatra. Cleopatra. So although she was she was still the ruler of this independent Egypt, he thought an alliance with her. Yeah. Against Octavian and Octavian he broke all laws by announcing publicly the will of Mark Anthony in Rome. Okay. And in this will it was read aloud in the forum imagine. don't know you know he published this will of Mark Anthony and it it said the Roman capital should be Alexandria and want to be buried in Alexandria with Cleopatra Cleopatra. Uhhuh. And that was not popular in Rome. He turned the public opinion in Rome against Mark Anthony. And that was almost the same as declaration of war. Was the will true? Yes. So it was his actual will. It wasn't fabricated. No. Okay. Really? So it was against all laws doing that. But he did it like for well political purposes. Emergency to gain public also. Backing. Yeah. Then the rest is history you could say. But then there was an excuse you know and civil war in the first century there had been lot of conflict as we talked about in the Roman Republic civil wars and it was not popular to fight your own. No you just had an alliance between Mark Anthony and Octavian and now they were suddenly fighting each other. So again strategically Octavian he declared war on Cleopatra. Okay. So not on Marcus and not not officially it was war against free independent Egypt with sole ruler Cleopatra and that she happened to have this alliance with Marantel. It was more like Yeah. Okay. So it was kind of like cold war tactic in way. Okay. Interesting. So yeah. So for Octavian, think it was not personal thing. But of course, he also had to take care of Cesarian because the son of Caesar and Cleopatra was real threat to him, although he was child at the time. So that was of course thing that had to be taken care of also. But Egypt was declared an enemy of Rome, you could say. And the official war was declared against Egypt. Yeah. And Eventually Egypt was then captured by Rome following the battle of Actium in 31 B.CE where Octaven defeated Cleopatra and Mark Anthony and these two committed suicide and all of Egypt fell under Rome and thus became the private property of the emperor of Rome meaning Octavian now Augustus. Did life in Egypt or in Rome change dramatically after this? Was there any like physical way that the people of these places would have seen change? Yes. And that of course happened gradually. But would say big change for the Egyptian was that their ruler for the first time for yeah well more than 4,000 years lived outside of Egypt. The ruler was now in Rome. They have been used to having the pharaoh and then the followome all the rulers the Egyptians rulers were present in Egypt. But that changed and that was huge change because Egypt functioned in very traditional way by way of the pharaoh being the intermediate person between the gods and the people. So in way you could say Egypt didn't really function without pharaoh. So there was an intermetzo when he conquered Egypt of few years because Octaven refused to proclaim himself as pharaoh. But then at the end he he he said okay need function in Egypt. need the corn supplies. need rich Egypt functioning also you know in administr. So he agreed to let himself call her Pharaoh and then he went off you know he he was not present. So he left for Rome and in Rome the change was also like physical you could say because one of the first thing he started was the export of Egyptian antiquities you could say. Okay. And the most impressive antiquities he got out of Egypt was some of the obelisk that are now standing in Rome still standing. Still standing. Yes. So we know at least of four obelisks being sent out of Egypt under Augustan rule. So that changed also the topography of Rome you could say. And just to clarify maybe there's someone who doesn't know but what is an obelisk? Yes. Well it's monolithic high pillar with pyramidium at the top like small pyramid at at the top but it's huge stone you could say. Some they are between 25 and 35 high and cut in one piece. So heavy stuff and mostly almost all of them are cut in S1 granite. It's red stone from the desert. From the desert. Yeah. From the south of Egypt actually. S1. So these huge monolithic columns you could call them also were transported across the Mediterranean to Rome. And we don't really know the logistic of how that happened. We have descriptions of the ships, but we don't engineer wise really understand how they manage to do think read something once that said it was like between two ships. They would have mounted it and then sailed across the ocean like that. But that's one, but logistically across the Mediterranean Sea. Okay. Well, that's that's different question. Really interesting though. But what did this import of physical Egyptian object, what would this have meant for the Roman people that now there was like this giant big stone in Rome with bunch of Egyptian symbols on it? What what would this have meant to them? Yeah, that's of course difficult question to answer, but believe that the environment you live in and how it's decorated has an influence on how you think think. And this is pure power management would say from the side of Augustus and the Roman state. One thing is the logistics thing of transporting these huge stones across the Mediterranean but they were also set up in new context rededicated. So they kept their hoglyphic Egyptian inscriptions but also got new one in Latin. saying now Egypt has been brought under the sway of Rome. Now Egypt is Roman province. Yeah. And this obelisk rededicated to the Roman sun god's soul. So it in Egypt obelisk were dedicated to the Egyptian sun god Ra and had been so for centuries. And it's interesting that Augustus he knew that but he dismissed the Egyptian sun god and rededicated it to the Roman sun god. So it's like religious power gesture in way. So would say this is manifestation of power and big one. would say also physically you know for the everyday average Roman you could say the average people of Rome Egypt was far away. Yeah they might have seen the back of Cleopatra who knows when she was in Rome but otherwise Egypt was far away. stories were of course circulated and triumphs were held in Rome, but it was also way of bringing the war and the victories of course to Rome to the people and in that way also gaining the support of the people you could say. Yeah. So think the physical manifestation of transporting these obelisk out of Egypt to Rome is also way of showing okay did it you know I'm I'm the I'm the right person to to rule this state. Yeah, it's like the final underlining of the victory. Yes, would say. But the capture of Egypt, as you say, it it meant lots of cultural change in Rome. Material culture like the obelisks, but also religious activity and and civil society were also affected in different ways. Temples were made in Rome in dedication of Egyptian gods and goddesses. Can you tell us little bit about that? Yes, the worship of well one of the most popular Egyptian gods and goddesses were Isis and she was actually worshiped outside Egypt already in in the 4th century and we know her in Italy already from the second century BC and she spread we think with the sailors in the harbors. They got around in the Mediterranean and they got acquainted with this new you could say religion of Isis and she was popular goddess. There was different initiation rits that you had to perform to be part of this religious society around her cult. But then she was also goddess capable of almost everything. For the sailors, it was like secure journey and also made promises of life after death. There were some interesting things to believe in also for the average Roman. It was quickly gaining huge popularity also outside Egypt in Greece and in Rome and temple were built in her honor. Also her husband Sarapis was also popular god adopted into the Roman pantheon. Okay. And there was huge temple in the field of March in Rome but also huge important Isis temple in Benventum for example. So so it not just came to Rome but also kind of the Italian province itself. Yes. Okay. And then even after the death of Augustus, as you mentioned at the very beginning, Egypt remained Roman province for several centuries and the emperor of Rome kept the mantle of Pharaoh and Egypt and Rome remained connected and Roman emperors would use Egypt as sort of this political bargaining chip in different ways. What was the relationship between Egypt and Rome like under their leadership? Yes, Egypt remained an important province throughout the Roman period. would say the Roman Empire. And what's important is that this annexation of Egypt or the Octavian's annexation, Augustus' annexation of Egypt was crucial not only to his ideology but also for the formation of imperial rule. So it was the republic was like no longer existing. Now we have like imperial rule and he was the founder. He was the first one and Egypt was would think very important reason why this was made possible actually and it stayed province and it was important for stone rich in stone rich in corn rich in material culture religion also lot of influence was taken well well flew out of Egypt you could say and it's like you say when they conquered Greece there's famous saying that Greece instantly conquered Rome back with all its culture, its rich culture. And you could say the same about Egypt. would say once Egypt was conquered, Egypt conquered Rome back. Yeah. So the Egypta capta thing could be turned on. Yeah. And it was not also materially manifesting itself in Rome and other places on the Italian peninsula via the religion for example. So it stayed province important especially for economy, corn supplies and things were of course as it got more integrated you could say things normalized. It became part of the empire but still province where access was limited because nobody wanted strong man in Egypt because it was place where you could cause revolt. It was strong power base and no emperor was interesting in having strong man sitting there. revolt happening. So it was ruled by prefect like governor sort of. Yeah. governor. Yeah. And mostly quite peaceful province. There were some legions stationed there but it was surprisingly you could say compared to what happened on the northern frontiers rather peaceful. Well, until the end of the first century in the end of the 60s and the 70s, we have new conflict because the last of the Julian Claudian emperors, the famous and infamous Nero died childless. yeah. And that left again power vacuum. So who was to rule? There was no direct heir. And there was civil war from 69 to 70. Four emperors were well. Yes. The year of the four emperors, right? Exactly. your four emperors and the one the successful one was the emperor Vespatian or he became the emperor Vespatian and he was the founder of new dynasty called the Flavian dynasty and for Vespatian and the Flavian dynasty Egypt also played an important role in different way than for Augustus but still at that time Egypt had been part of the Roman Empire for hundred years and that was of course celebrated But at that time, Egypt was more place of miracles and magic. Yeah. Mystical place. Mystical place. Still far away from the you could say ordinary Roman, but still place where miracle could happen. And that was used also in an ideological way of this new dynasty that had to establish themselves. Their external enemy were the the Jews in Judea. Judea was actually also an integrated part of the Roman Empire but there were revolts all the time and the Flavian emperor Titus he was famous for he raised Jerusalem right. Yes. Yeah. They burned down the temple in Jerusalem and stole whole bunch of things. Yes. whole bunch of things that were taken back to Rome as as Augustus took the obelisk. You could say the Flavian took the minora and all the holy stuff out of the arc of the covenant possibly. Yes. So the outer enemy you could say ideologically for Augustus Egypt was the enemy for the Flavian it was Judea the Jews while Egypt for the Flavians was more like land of miracle and mystery spirituality. Okay. And that gave Vespatian name because miracle actually happened before he came to Rome. He stayed for almost year in Alexandria and healed blind and lame. Okay. He spat on the blind and put his foot on the lame and miraculously in the temple of Sarapus they cured. And these stories was spread out of Alexandria. Yeah. So when he made way to Rome for his triumph, yeah, he was hailed as savior of Rome, an emperor, man of miracles. Okay. And which he gained from Egypt. Egypt. Okay. So there is this really interesting sort of dynamic between the new generation of emperors, you could say. Yeah. Of course, Egypt had at that time been part of the Roman Empire for 100 years. So you could say things had normalized in way. It was no longer the direct enemy as it had been for for Augustus, but it was still land of miracles and well, you could say culture that was still very different from the the Roman. There was still this sort of distinct Egyptian identity in way, right? You could say that. Yeah. Also for the worship of strange god with animal heads and stuff and and as you say, Egypt remained Roman province for several centuries. actually pretty much all the way up until well the Byzantine Empire took it over and then they only really lost it when the Islamic conquest really took off. So think that's where we'll sort of end off from the antiquity perspective. My final question is if there is one misconception you'd like to clear about the relationship between Egypt and Rome and and some of the things that we've talked about today. yes, that's difficult question. think there well think it's important to understand that one could say Egypt was important for the formation of imperial rule and that's sometimes don't know if it's forgotten but it's sometimes underestimated how important it was for this new dynasty for Octavian later Augustus and his way to power that he managed to conquer the last of the free states around the Mediterranean. Yeah. So would like to underline that. And what came out of Egypt was not only miracles but also like physical monuments, big monuments as the obelis, but also minor things that flew into Rome and can still be seen today. Interesting. So let's not underestimate the pivotal role that Egypt really played in in the formation of what would become the Roman Empire. All right. Thank you for clearing that up, Christina, and thank you for coming on the podcast and giving us so many insights into the relationship between Egypt and Rome. It's been absolutely great having you here today. Thank you. It's been pleasure. And thank you, dear listener, for tuning in to this episode of Let's Dig Deeper. hope you've learned lots and that you're planning your next trip to Alexandria or Rome for that matter. What do know? If you have any questions or suggestions for the podcast, you can reach us at let's [email protected]. Again, that is let's digdeeper [email protected]. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss an episode and find us on social media under the name let's dig deeper. am Zenith Harun and I've been your host. You can reach me on Instagram at z_archchaeology. Thanks for tuning in. I'll see you next time where we will dig deeper into another topic. Bye.