When Family Ties Conflict With a Childs Safety What the System Gets Wrong

Hi there everybody. Welcome back to the table. We're excited to have you come and join us. And we'd like to offer you the opportunity to pull up chair, have discussion as we talk about some current issues and and current things around the child welfare space. And I'm joined by two of the two of the regulars here at the table. Chelsea Soick. Hi, Chelsea. Hello. How are you doing? Well, it is sunny and 72 here, so I'm doing great. Wow. That's for for DC. That's that that's something to be enjoyed, you know, springtime. So, am very thankful. And also, my friend and running buddy, Herby Newell. Herby, how's it going today? Going well, Dr. Rick, we're just grateful. know Chelsea and are grateful to be with one so venerable as you. Always. Always. If we're going to carry if we're going to carry anything over from the Defender podcast, it is the my venerability. So, appreciate that for sure. I'm not really sure what that means, but I'm going to take it as compliment. So, hey, so we are today going to we're going to delve in and talk little bit about kinship and about kinship care and those things in our our foster care system. And you know realizing that that we have system that is increasingly prioritizing placement with relatives and there's good intentions and lot of you know fairly large body of research behind that. But as kinship care becomes more the norm and more what our system leans toward there are also some tensions that emerge. caregivers stepping in without preparation, children being moved without regard to bonding, some of those sorts of things. And so, we're going to delve in today and and talk little bit about that. And so, you know, first of all, from from the perspective of people that follow Jesus, what are your thoughts just entering into the conversation about kinship care? How does how does being Christ follower color the way that you approach this like it does everything else? Chelsea, wait, why won't you jump in? That's great question. think there's number of ways to answer that question, and I'm I'm sure we'll we'll touch on number of the ways, but think the the first and most fundamental way, and think we we would all sign off on this, is that God designed children to be in families. and we have all worked in child welfare for for long time. And so we've seen the harsh and heartbreaking reality of children not being in family or of broken families and families struggling. And think as Christian that ought to break our heart every single time. And we should not get numbed to the fact that broken families break God's heart and they ought to break our heart. And because it's not how God designed the institution of family. And so think that's that's the baseline is God designed family to be between man, woman, and to be that that safe place for for children. And so think that's kind of the the starting point as Christians where we start is that children belong in families. Now, what does that mean for our child welfare system? and we'll get into that. But think that's the that's the thing that undergurs as Christians how we understand family. you know in the year of our Lord 2026 there are many different definitions of family. As as Christians we know there are definitions that are simply not true. They're not telling the truth about what family is to that unit and to the world. And so think we have responsibility as Christians to both tell the truth about what family is and to uphold what flourishing families can and ought to look to look like. So think that's starting point as Christian that God designed families God designed families to flourish and we live in broken and fallen world where families don't flourish. Families break apart and children for you know more reasons than we can count today cannot and should not stay with with their family for for time or or maybe forever. So, think that's that's kind of the baseline and I'll, you know, maybe kick it over to to Herby if he wants to add anything. But think as Christians, that's where we ought to start is God designed the institution of the family to be to be certain certain type of institution between man and woman and to be that that stability for for children. Yeah. Herby, what are you thinking? Yeah. So, mean, think love everything that Chelsea said and obviously would say amen. Children need families. You see the biblical imperative that God sets the lonely in families. That that's his ideal. And we live in broken, fallen world where unfortunately families of origin are not always safe places for children. And so think the first thing that would say is with family and children in families always as our goal, we also have to prioritize the welfare of of vulnerable children. And and think what's so hard for lot of people and don't know we're going to get little bit in delve into kinship care and some other types of things, but this is there's not one-sizefits-all process for any child that's vulnerable. And think that's where it's so complex and we have to be willing to sit in the complex and leave every option open for child to find both that stability in family, but also what is the most healthy choice? What is the the choice that's going to ultimately serve the needs of that child first and foremost? And think that's where we've just got to be very careful because in broken fallen world, everything is very messy. And know as as as linear thinkers, we like to think of man falls in hole, go get rope, man gets out of the hole and he's safe. With child, it's not always the rope. Sometimes it's ladder you need. Sometimes you got to get down in the hole with them and you got to figure out how to get out. Sometimes it is the rope. There's lots of different ways that we have to solve this problem. And think lot of times what we find is lawmakers make laws that are one-sizefits-all. And in the end, it makes it lot harder to find the best outcomes for child. Yeah, think you're think you're right. And think it when when we look for bureaucratic solutions to lots of these problems, when you're trying it, it it comes down to one-sizefits-all solutions that don't necessarily fit all the situations. And think you know particularly as we think about kinship care one of the things that that seems difficult to me is families and family life is different in that we don't we don't live close to lot of extended family many of us and it's we become mobile society and and also fractured society and you know wonder at times if maybe some of the rules that we're we're using to think about community don't necessarily really exist any longer. And and think we all we all know stories of where children have been moved from one placement to another and have been moved into kinship placement where they've been taken states away or into, you know, into circumstances where they're coming into the life of kinship caregiver that's somebody that's part of their family but it's someone they don't know. And and think those, you know, those can be incredibly difficult circumstances when the idea that we think of that maybe lot of this is based on is more that you have extended family leave living within arms reach and there's, you know, there's more of community sense of that. Well, what about the preparation part of this? think as well because think one of the challenging things that we see many times as we think about kinship care is that the state perhaps is incredibly involved in in the preparing of foster parents but maybe not so much involved at times in the preparation of of kinship families. And it it seems as though the lines get very blurry in, you know, in that conversation. It occurs to me that that that's place where the church can really shine if you know if we chose to do that in stepping into the lives of of birth family. And Herby, what what would be some of those things that as we think about the the church's ability to bring not only bring the gospel to bear, but to bring to bring the gospel to bear relationally in ways that we could maybe perhaps encounter birth families or kinship or extended families in Yeah. You know, obviously very broad lot of things that we can do as the church. think in specificity as we're talking about kids are being removed from their first families. think one of the things the church can do is really care for those kinship families, right? Make sure that that those families are prepared. Make sure that they have the tools and the resources that they need. you know, know we're probably going to get into this little bit more, but you know, one of the issues with kinship care is the prejudice goes towards biology, but it doesn't go to preparedness. it doesn't go to resource. are those families correctly resourced? are those families do they have what they need to be able to adequately meet the needs of those children? think these are some places where the church can come alongside of those extended families providing those resources, providing that care. You know, one of the things that will also say is and again I'm not necessarily answering your question, Dr. Rick, but but think really want to say this part is Yeah. When we prejudice biological families, we're also not looking at is this really what that child needs to succeed. And so being very careful because it's it's story that's personal to people in my family. You know, had extended relative who lost custody of her two children and grandmother ended up bringing the children into the home. Well, this grandmother was physically with her health was not really at place where she could take care of young children. She was not ready for the traumatic issues that they were going to bring into her home. And in the end, the grandmother actually ended up in the hospital with some pretty major surgery and the kids were removed from grandmother again. In the meantime, there was stable foster family that could keep them in the same schools that could be able to bring some stability to them during this time that was passed over twice until the second relative, which actually ended up being my wife and could take these same children in. Again, we loved these children, but then when Ashley and were able to bring them in, we loved them. We cared for them the best that we could, but we also had, even though I'm not extremely close relationship, we had close enough relationship with their birthother visitation, even outside of what the courts had ordained. We were constantly put under pressure to get them on the phone all the time. And so pressure that in the situation and because of what this birth mother had done and the reason her kids had been removed, it wasn't safe situation for these children and it put actually more tense it put more more tense relationship around them. It put them in even further trauma and in the end it was yet another loss they experienced until guess what? they ended up in the unrelated foster home where they were able to thrive, stay in their school system, and really be able to to to do the things they need. So, think again, kinship care in theory is fantastic. Kinship care in practice, there's lot of things we have to think about and lot of roadblocks. And that is to answer your original question, think there's lot of place for the church to really speak into that, both to resource that non-relative family, but also to resource that relative family. Yeah. Yeah, was and appreciate you sharing that story because think that really does illustrate the complexity of the question and and the fact that when when you have the state with system and set of rules and and mandates that are being placed by court and and all that, it it really does make the situation much stickier for you know for those relatives that are that are becoming involved. all because you're on one hand you're caring for the child as part of your family on the other hand you have responsibility as you know as somebody who's acting under you know in relationship with the authority of the state and kind of and her me what was probably fishing for little bit was the idea of just as we as as we think about hosting models and as we think about the church being able to train families to you know to host kids within the church wonder if you know one of the things that we can think about as well is is using some of those resources to reach out to kinship care families and Chelsea what about from policy perspective that's also as in addition to being an adopted mom and you know all the other hats you wear one of the things that you know you think about this from policy perspective how does how does this strike you yeah think there's couple of things will say and Herby really appreciate that you addressed lot of the complexities in this and think I'll say two things and then answer your actual question Dr. Correct. But think we in the child welfare community talk lot about putting the best interest of the child first and yet we still find ourselves in situations where that is not happening or we you know pay lip service to it but then all these other factors are at play. And think that has to be the guiding principle for social workers, for policy makers, for the church. We that we have to truly come on the same page. And know we talk about this lot, but Herby to your point with that that situation, you know, think we could all tell stories of of fa, you know, people we know or situations we've seen where it's it's gone sideways. and so think that that has to be the the first thing. think the second thing that I've seen on policy front is the pendulum can swing pretty heavily back and forth and you know there's been you know federal bills state level bills that have been passed to try to write some of that but one thing am encouraged about in theory and hope this in practice will continue to or will put the best interest of children first is this current HHS Department of Health and Human Services, their initiative right now is home for every child. That's kind of their tagline. And of course, we could split hairs of safe and stable home, home that's, you know, all of that, but you know, in years past, there's been, you know, push for more foster families to be recruited, which is always needed and and whatnot. But am on in principle encouraged that this current HHS is thinking about home for children. And again, we can get into the weeds of what that actually looks like, but I'm encouraged that that you know, at least in theory seems to be seems to be where their their head and their mind is at. think the second thing will say you you both mentioned this and worked on Capitol Hill for number of years which is federal national policy and anyone who knows anything about child welfare policy there's certainly federal policies but so much happens at state and and county level and you know will always believe that good public policy matters but this is where the church matters even more because the church can be where the government can't and shouldn't be, which is everywhere. don't want the government everywhere, but the church can be everywhere. And the church can be, you know, my hometown in North Carolina looks very different than Alabama. That looks very different than California. And those church communities know their congregations. They know their communities. They know the pain point. They know all of that. And so, you know, there there's always going to be room for policy solutions, but what works in Texas isn't going to work in New York City and and things like that. And that's why as Christians, think we have such unique opportunity to step in and to care for our communities. And maybe I'll just end on little personal example. we were all talking before we hit record. My son was in the hospital for week and we're home and we're doing well. But even in that week, we don't live close to family at all. And our church family came to visit us. They texted every day and prayed for us. They sent us Door Dash gift cards. They brought meals. it. And was thinking about this in preparation for recording of church family caring for our vulnerable family over the past couple weeks and how much it meant. And you know, for one family to send meal wasn't big lift. but it blessed our socks off and helped stabilize us in really challenging time. and how feel like I'm monologuing at this point. will land plane, but how you know, maybe someone listening to this who could feel really overwhelmed of the policy and this and that and you know, we can all we can all serve our communities we can all you know find needs and and help meet them. Whether that's financial donations, making meal, babysitting for couple hours, there's just so many different ways we can help help families in our communities. So, there's lot there, but think government matters. It's one of the the three God ordained institutions, but the church also has such significant role to play in in these conversations as well. Well, think we've got to lift up our eyes, too, right? like the needs of many of these families and the needs of their extended family are out of sight, out of mind in lot of respects to many of our churches. And think one of the, you know, one of the things that becomes difficult in this is getting involved in communities and getting involved in the lives of people whose lives don't necessarily look like ours. they're not necessarily, you know, going to the same places we're going always or those sorts of things and and really kind of inconveniencing ourselves in that way for, you know, for the opportunity to build relationships so that we find opportunities to be able to serve those families. Well, want to want to kind of throw attention for just minute to there was an article that that we looked at kind of in preparation. And want to go back and talk about it little bit in about in the New York appeals court and the class action there was cl class class action lawsuit that was allowed to proceed on behalf of children who had been denied placement with willing relatives. And this one kind of jumped off the page to me as we were looking at some things that are happening out there around kinship placement and and the focus of the courts is the idea that there have been delays or administrative barriers or even disqualifications of birth families or or of extended family as children have been removed from their birth families. And the fact that there is so there's constitutional question you know that comes into play is you know what is the what is the right of child with regard to speedy placement and and what is the sort of what is the balancing right of family. thought this was just fascinating case in the fact that, you know, it seems to be that the judges are at least wanting the courts to consider the idea that that birth family may should be preferred in that. Just curious about, you know, your your reaction to the case and and where, you know, where you think this may go and how we should react to it. Kirby, what what do you think? Yeah. Well, mean, think it's again, would probably repeat some of the same things I've already said for sure, you know, but certainly think and and let me go actually and use this from an international adoption sense because know we're all very engaged with international adoption as well. don't think any of us and Chelsea is international adoptee and an international adopted mom. Dr. Rick, you're an international adopted dad and I'm very passionate about international adoption. So, but anytime we go obviously we all would believe and agree that if child can stay in their country of origin, come into safe family and be cared for that that would be best case scenario. Again, we don't always live in best case scenario, but we've got to have mechanism that realizes if that's not possibility, what's the next best right thing? And so, obviously, we want to keep families together. If that's not best, let's look at family. If that's not if there's not great situation there, then let's go ahead and look towards the unrelated unrelated family. think one of the things that the case continues to say, and know it's legal words, and know it's legal words that are being used in legislation as well, but it's this whole idea of stranger family. and think instead we need to realize that we need to have an equal basis of of qualifying families, right? And so there needs to be equality. know that the the argu the argument in the lawsuit was some kinship placements are denied because of offenses that they had decades ago. Well, in the same way, non-relative families are also held to that same standard. And so, we need to have baseline standard that says this is what's best for child. This is what's safe for child. think this idea that we have that child is only going to be abused in non-relative home is really just not beared out by the statistics. And so we need to keep baseline. But think all three of us would would agree if child is removed from their biological family here in the United States in the same way we would look at that continuum of care in an international sense, we would definitely prioritize and say if there is safe family that meets all the criteria and they are going to help keep that child in the things that they know, then yes, let's look at them. But if there's not that best case scenario, if they're going to have to go out of state, if you're going to have to disrupt their life, if they don't know that family member very well, in sense, that family is just as much stranger as non-relative placement, then we need to look at the next placement that's going to be best for that child. And think if we put the child's best interest at heart and at at at the core, then then we'll make the right decisions. So bottom line, don't think the court's wrong to say that we should look at biological kinship placements first, but think we the court is wrong when it says that maybe we should have lesser standards for those kinship placements. Yeah, Chelsea, go ahead. Yeah, I'll just say one thing. think mean these are not black and white issues at all. Again, just because child is placed with foster family, that does not mean at all that they will never have visitation rights with their their biological family, right? And so think publicly we can pit the two against each other in ways that don't need to, you know, they if social worker is looking at the best interest of child, the best interest of child might be foster family in the same city and then visitation with grandma or, you know, think, you know, it's if these if these were simple to address, we would have we would have figured it out. But there it's, you know, it's not black and white. And if social workers are doing their jobs well, then they will protect children and ensure that they can have time with biological families is appropriate and safe. Well, but we not to interrupt you, Dr. Rick, but but point that Chelsea actually also makes that think is really important is you also have to consider that kinship placements aren't also the placements that are the preference of the biological parent. So there's lot of times biological parents would say, would actually rather my child not be with this relative because of some relationship that's that's been there." And so that's why think Chelsea's so right. This is not one-sizefits-all solution. It's very complex. It's multi-layered. And so yes, it should be preference as we're going through the list, but it doesn't need to be so preferred that we prejudice kinship care over any other type of care. Well, just felt like reading this article that this is one of those things where we're watching the death of common sense. You know, there's there there's sense in which that we we are so trying to, you know, name every contingency and to, you know, kind of give this rank pri priority or order to, you know, to certain factors. you know, the idea if you're talking about somebody that had an offense 20 years ago or whatever, well, common sense should rule in how, you know, how you're able to walk that out, how social worker is able to walk that out in the case. And and we don't we don't see that necessarily, you know, being the case that we're not really good using good practical reason, think, many times in in entering into how we, you know, how we approach this. And so what you know what are are maybe couple of things as as we leave today and you know one of the things we want to do is we want to hear your thoughts about this. We want to know your experiences stories maybe that you've come across out there and and help us as we're continuing to try to carry on this discussion. What may what may be thing or two that we could say to folks that are out there that are wrestling with the idea of what's appropriate for kids in care and how can they make their voice heard? keep coming back to this so maybe will just end with this. child welfare is so complex and complicated. number one, because people are complex and complicated, but when child enters the system, that adds in layers and layers and layers of bureaucracy, of policy, of just so much extra complexity. And we know this and we talk about it, but think stating the obvious, like it is so complex and people of goodwill are are trying. and people also who we read the headlines of children sleeping in in offices and social workers burning out and there's never enough foster families and all of this. It's very complex and broken system and for any one of us who have touched it with our personal lives or or worked in it for any amount of time we can say amen to the complexity. So think people listening maybe who haven't worked worked in child welfare think please hear all three of us acknowledge the deep complexities and nuances in all of these conversations. And then think the second thing will say is I'm very actiondriven person. really kind of want that action step of here's three ways can get involved and and whatnot. But over the years I've I've been deeply convicted that quickly go to action instead of prayer and All of us can pray for our communities. We can pray for the social workers. We can pray for the judges, the family court judges, the decision maker. You know, we can pray for all of this on our morning commute or as we're doing the, you know, we can we can lift these things up in prayer because scripture tells us over and over and over again that he cares for the vulnerable, that he cares for the children, that he cares for families. And so I've been convicted over the years not to let prayer be kind of my my tackle and my last my last step kind of where go first. So think what would say is acknowledging the deep complexities and all the the ways the system has tried and failed and tried and failed again and then the ways that each one of us as Christians can actually get involved in our local communities with with prayer. And of course there's there's tangible action as well, but not to not to discount prayer. Yeah, that's strong. think if can't can't add to that because we know again we've we've said the father of the fatherless. you know, even couple of weeks ago, we were studying Acts five as staff and and one of the things we looked at is God's sovereignty and how he works and moves and directs things. And so we know if he's the father of the fatherless, he's going to care for these kids. And that he can work beyond bad placements. He can work beyond imperfect placements. think if were going to leave though with folks with three things, the the first thing that would do, and it feels counterintuitive and it's something that churches can do, so I'm answering your first question, Dr. Rick, is appreciate the social workers at your local CPS, child protective services. You know, know that they sometimes are the bad guys. They're not they they feel like they're always the bad guys because they're either picking up child from biological family, they're taking child out of foster home, they're not picking the kinship care, they're not picking the foster family that's right around the block. They're never the good guy. And think one of the things the church that we can do is go in and let these mostly young women, sometimes young men, know, hey, thank you. Thank you for looking out for the best interest of children. We're thankful for you and you're an evidence of God's common grace to children. think the the second thing that we can do is again and it seems very simple but we can start to love those that are around us because the truth of the matter is we're listening to this podcast and we may be even thinking that's over there that's on that part of town or that's being impacted somewhere else. You really don't even know within your sphere of influence within mile away how many families this is impacting in some way. So be good neighbor. Get to know your neighbors. know what's happening in your neighborhood and and be willing to reach out with kindness with with the compassion of Christ. And then third, I'll step into Chelsea's world. Let your representative know that you're passionate about this issue and that you believe it's multicmplex, multi- multi-dimensional, that it's complex, that there's no one-sizefits-all, and that you would love for them to speak in that ultimately we care for the best interest of children. And as Chelsea will tell you, because she's worked in those offices, she's advocated with those offices, they listen when you call and they do receive your phone calls. And just let them know that, hey, that you're behind them for anything that they do that is ultimately advocating for the best interest of child. Yeah, man. Thanks, Herby. and just want to echo as we as we wind this up, let's keep our eyes open in the world around us. mean, think even we've talked about kinship care with with regard to the system, but mean, how many of us know grandmothers or aunts or uncles or people that are in our sphere of influence that are, you know, that are raising children that that are permanent part of their family necessarily and are standing the gap for someone and we we have the opportunity to be able to be the hands and feet of Jesus in the lives of those families and to provide resources and do things to help them know what it is that they're doing and and how to do it more fully for kids that may have really complex stories and and really difficult histories. And so, well, hey, thanks for joining us at the table. We really appreciate you coming and pulling up chair with us and enjoying little bit of time. We will be right back here again on our next episode to take on another issue in child welfare or or current happening. And we hope that you'll join us on YouTube or Apple podcast or Spotify or wherever you find your shows and that either be visually or or if you are just listening to us in an audio format, we appreciate it. And so we hope you'll hit like and subscribe and all those things and and that you'll leave us post and let us know about what you're thinking and about maybe what you'd like to hear here on the table. So for for Chelsea and Herby, I'm Rick Morton and we are we're thankful to have you along with us today.