Christian Women vs Muslim Women The Bridge

So, speaking of sin, do you believe on both sides that if we don't follow your particular religion or faith that we would go to hell? So, from my upbringing and my understanding of the Quran, no. There's verse in chapter 2, verse 62 that says, "Christians, Jews, believers, anyone who believes in God, believes in the day of judgment, and does good on Earth has no fear, and God will reward them in the hereafter." What if don't believe in the Quran? So, does that put me in place where am going to hell in on your view? No, because the verse doesn't say you have to believe in the Quran. It says you have to believe in God and do believe in the day of judgment and do good on Earth. You wouldn't be considered Christian if you believe if they were to believe in your God. Do you see what I'm getting at? Christian, the word Christian is follower of Christ. In other words, person that believes in the triune God, person who serves the triune God. So, how can you be called Christian but then serving Allah? Doesn't make sense, and that means you're not Christian. So, where do we bridge that gap? guess it differs on opinions cuz from my perspective, it's the same God. What do you believe happened at the end of Jesus's life? Well, it says very clearly in the Quran that Jesus wasn't crucified. He was taken up. He was He ascended to God instantly. God loved him so much. He would not let him be hurt at all. So, he just simply ascended, and that's it's it's just one line, think, in the Quran, one or two lines in the Quran. This episode brings Muslim and Christian women together to discuss God, scripture, salvation, and the faith traditions that shape their lives. Through open dialogue, they examine both the differences and the unexpected common ground between their beliefs while addressing misconceptions and sharing personal convictions. Join us for respectful exchange that invites curiosity, understanding, and deeper appreciation of two of the world's most influential religions. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Daf. Welcome to The Bridge. Hi, my name is Danya and I'm Muslim. Hi, my name is Khadija Abdulla and identify as black American Muslim. Hi, my name is Romana and I'm Muslim. Hi, I'm Loana and I'm Muslim. My name is Shanatha and I'm Christian. My name is Kalia and I'm Christian. My name is Christina and I'm Christian. My name is Ty and I'm Christian. Thank you. The first prompt is humans are born pure without sin. All right. So, anyone can share. So, believe in scripture being true, obviously, and in Psalms 51, verse 5, it's the prophet David talking, and he says that we were all born in sin and shaped in iniquity. And know that when think about life, think about children, think about how the mother has to teach the 2-year-old child to share. When think about those things, it reinforces the fact that our our nature is selfish, and it's redirection that helps us out of that selfishness. So, the fact that the Bible says that we are born in sin, you can see it being played out not just in the scripture but in real life. Yeah, believe that we're all born into sin. We're born into sinful nature, but that doesn't necessarily mean that God's grace doesn't redeem that or doesn't extend to those of us Well, all of us who are born into sin. So, for instance, if something terrible happens to child or someone who's developmentally delayed, that doesn't mean that God's grace doesn't extend or meet them there. It absolutely does, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we have this inclination to sin. agree with that word you used there, the inclination to sin, because believe the Bible teaches that we're born with that inclination to sin, but we're not born guilty of Adam's sin. So, think making that distinction is helpful because like Romans 5:12 says, you know, sin entered the world through Adam's sin. So, now we're in this fallen world, and death spreads to all men because all sin. We all sin and, you know, we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So, we aren't born guilty of Adam's sin, but we're born in Adam's likeness in that we have this inclination, this sinful desire. According to the Quran, human are born pure. There's something called fitra in Arabic, which translate closely as innateness, like with pure nature. There's no fall in the Quran. Therefore, there's no sin that human being carry when they were born. They will be judged after adulthood for what they do. But before that, they aren't considered sinful. They are considered, you know, with no sin. So, can child commit on both sides Can child commit sin without before knowing right from wrong? Yeah, think if child punches another kid in the face and doesn't realize that there's consequence to that or that that's wrong, it's still wrong. The fact that the other kid is hurt is the consequence of the sin that occurred, and it's that very consequence that teaches the kid, this is wrong. It caused hurt to another person." So, yeah, absolutely, children can sin, but they learn from the consequences of their actions in the same way that adults do. would even make the distinction that children can commit sinful acts, but they're not accountable for that sin. For instance, Deuteronomy 1:39 talks about how the children who are too young to know right and wrong or good and evil, they still enter the promised land. So, can child steal something? Yes. Are they guilty of stealing? No, because they're not accountable for that sin. Even Isaiah 7:19 talks about how child can be at point where they're too young to choose the good from the bad. So, just think the distinction between committing sinful act and being guilty of sin is really, really, really important here. Anyone else want to share on this? and kind of going off on what was said earlier and your point, in Islam, child or person becomes accountable for their sins after puberty. So, child cannot necessarily be guilty of sin. They could do something wrong, but it's not they're not accountable for it yet until they've hit puberty, which is considered the age of maturity. Would that be like 12 or what what age would that be? It's It depends on It depends on their own puberty age. Okay, so there's not one set age. It's just when they hit puberty. see. do have question for the Muslim ladies because in Sahih Muslim 2662, Aisha is at the funeral of young boy, and it says that he's too young to have committed sin. So, she's like telling Muhammad, "Surely he's in paradise because he's too young to have committed sin." And Muhammad says, "Peradventure, it may be otherwise." So, I'm just curious in light of this idea that, you know, children are not guilty of sin, why would it be otherwise that he would be in paradise? So, the Hadith that's mentioned in the Sahih you said Sahih Sahih Muslim. Muslim. 2662. Hadith is the prophet's narrations, and so, the word Hadith means the We have to make sure before we discuss that how solid is this Hadith because lot of Hadith were input in lot of big books. So, you know, we have to investigate and see if it is right Hadith, and it will have an explanation to support what comes in the Quran. So, all the prophetic Hadith, they the original ones, they support what comes in the Quran. It can't be contradictory. Right, so this one is considered to be Sahih, which means authentic, right? No, it depends. It depends. We can't assume that. But like said, if there's clear verse in the Quran that human being are born without sin, the Hadith that are supportive of that, they are the right Hadith. Otherwise, it can't be contradictory. agree. think we're on the same page that children aren't guilty of sin. My question is, like we're like Aisha, right? We're like, "Why, you know, this kid is too young to have committed sin." So, don't think that Quran verse you're mentioning contradicts that idea, but more so, my question is, if children are innocent, then why would the possibility of the child not being in paradise be thing? Like said again, the the Hadith does not if it does not align with the Quran, then we have to assume that it's not concrete solid Hadith. There were lot of Hadith input in even big books, famous books. But and then we have have personally an issue with the word sin. There are mistakes. There are wrongdoings. You know, the word sin in Islam is huge. It's big. So, if say child committed mistake, it's it's understandable. It happens every day. But the word sin itself, it's in Islam, it's related to big acts of evil. Yeah. So, speaking of sin, do you believe on both sides that if we don't follow your particular religion or faith that we would go to hell? So, from my upbringing and my understanding of the Quran, no. There's verse in chapter 2, verse 62 that says, "Christians, Jews, believers, anyone who believes in God, believes in the day of judgment, and does good on Earth has no fear, and God will reward them in the hereafter." Well, would just want to say like, "What if don't believe in the Quran?" So, does that put me in place where am going to hell in on your view? No, because the verse doesn't say you have to believe in the Quran. It says you have to believe in God and do believe in the day of judgement and do good on Earth. But Christians, you wouldn't be considered Christian if you believe if they were to believe in your God. So you see what I'm getting at? Cuz Christians are people who Christian The word Christian is follower of Christ. In other words, person that believes in the triune God, person who serves the triune God. So how can you be called Christian, but then serving Allah? Doesn't make sense and that means you're not Christian. So where do we bridge that gap? guess it differs on opinions cuz from my perspective it's the same God. Just to answer your question. So for the Christian perspective, we believe that if you don't profess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, worship the triune God, there is place of separation that has been prepared for those who don't acknowledge Jesus as the son of God. would say where we differ and maybe you guys can give more commentary on some of the passages in the Quran, but know that Surah 7:49 talks about beheading, slicing the necks of those who don't believe on the day of war. And just talk about this idea of jihad because feel like there are so many people who practice Islam who do persecute. The number one source of Christian persecution is at the hands of Islamic states. These aren't people, these aren't just one extreme person or one extreme group, but these are entire countries that persecute Christians because of what they believe is in the book. Because they believe that this idea of holy war does exist. And know that there's differing interpretations on that, but think you have to ask the question like why are there so many extremist groups as opposed to Christianity, we're not persecuting any nation across the world trying to get people to convert. Yeah, so was saying that that is kind of from Christian perspective. The non-Christian perspective, when we look at Christians, we have you know, lot of fears. Because it starts with the Crusades and then during which time you know, hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Orthodox Christians you know, lost their lives, were killed. And then it goes to That's we're talking between the 9th century and the 12th century. Following that, then you have the Spanish Inquisition where Muslims and Jews were forced to convert and if they didn't convert, if they didn't agree to convert, then they were killed or exiled. And that the numbers around there are you know, in the hundreds of thousands. And then of course after the Spanish Inquisition after the Muslims were banished from Europe or killed and the Jews as well, you have Christian colonization begins and you have the British going over to India, the British going over to Africa, not just the British, the Dutch, the Bulgarians and the French as well. And they were they were informed by Christian missionaries. And just to say that the Christian missionaries informed their missions isn't really enough. They actively participated as well. So as was saying before, India the the British stole something like 40 43 trillion dollars over period of 200 years. And then in Africa, 10 million Africans were you know, stolen from their homeland, transported across the Atlantic. Many of them, the majority of them died over that over that trip. Enslaved when they got there when they got to America. Enslaved by Christians who used the Bible to inform and justify the slavery of Africans referring to you know, dark skin in in the Bible. forget beginning with but anyway, it was justified through the Bible and they were enslaved. Families they were bred, families were separated, families were children were What is it called? sold. And Yeah, and then the Africans you know, they were they were even eaten by Christians who justified all this behavior using the Bible. And I'm I'm saying that not to criticize the Bible, but to criticize the interpretation of the Bible. And I'm sure there are people there are plenty of people who sort of do not agree with that interpretation of the Bible, but interpretation of the Bible has been used to justify Christian manifest destiny. And then you have the Native Americans. 56 million Native Americans genocided, gone. And now by by the 19th by the beginning of the 20th century, you had 330,000 Native Americans left. respect everything you said. do believe in history and thank you for the historical lesson. just think want to highlight this part. She asked question about something that's in your text and she was requesting for it to be addressed. You brought up historical stuff. Yeah. So things that people did Yeah. right? People did outside of the Bible and misuse the Bible. See, you didn't bring up scripture where it says humans or Christians, any of the disciples, any of the any any any leader doing that type of behavior, but you brought up his history. So don't know how that answered the question as person trying to gain understanding, but do want to highlight that from the response that you gave to her. So that's great point and my criticism isn't for the Bible. My criticism is for the interpretation of the Bible and the interpretation is historical record. This is why bring up history. But some of the history that you brought up was kind of skewed, right? So when you were even speaking about the Crusades, like what were what was that response to? Islamic conquest. So and chattel slavery is expressly forbidden in the Bible. So you're talking about people who claim to be Christians that are misinterpreting things, but still there are things that are explicitly in the Quran that weren't addressed and that's kind of what we We're trying to seek we're trying to seek the answers. wanted to speak to the prompt about hell. sometimes have had like conversations with Muslims and they seem to kind of guess shy away from the fact that hell is in their text and that's okay cuz it's in our text too. And so they try to paint this picture that no, there it's not there, but did some research and found out that the Quran actually talks about hell and mentions hell more times than the New Testament mentions hell. One verse that comes to mind is Surah 98:6. It says that the polytheist and those that subscribe to the book, something along those lines, they will be in hell because they're the lowest of creatures. So think what helps gaps not be bridged is when there's like kind of this veiling of of truth. There is lot of text in the Quran that mention hell for people that do not believe, especially shirk. For me putting my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, on your belief I'm going to hell. And so we have that in our text as well and that's what makes distinction between our faith. That's one of the things that makes distinction. Hey friends, let's talk really quick about something that could seriously change your life if you ever get hurt. When you're seriously injured, whether it's car accident, slip and fall or something totally unexpected, your case could actually be worth millions. But here's the catch. Insurance companies love to lowball you, like insultingly low. That's where Morgan & Morgan comes in. They're America's largest injury law firm with over 1,000 attorneys across all 50 states. And they've been fighting for regular people for over 30 years. This isn't your average law firm. Just listen to this. They recently won $12 million in Florida. 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Yes, so do believe that the Quran is the final testament of Allah because you know, the Torah was was brought down and so was the Bible, but they were after like years were misconstructed and they were bastardized. So the Quran came down and corrected everything that was basically taken out of context. So the Quran is in my view perfect book as Muslim. That it's my perfect book and don't I'm just speaking for myself right now, so just let someone else talk. So if there are Hadiths for instance Hadiths? Hadiths, yeah. That aren't reliable, how do you decide what documentation is good to read for the Quran? And then also, can you tell us how the Torah was corrupted and why it's not trustworthy? Why it's not trustworthy? Mhm. Because well, in the Quran it basically corrects everything everything that was misconstrued. So say if there's like contradiction in the Bible, one verse says what you're supposed to do and another verse says what you're not supposed to do in relation to two verses, but haven't read the Quran. It just doesn't make sense. Like why would one verse say you're supposed to do this, but in turn in another verse, I'm supposed to do it, but in certain way or just taken out of context completely. Like said, had never read the Bible, so don't know what it says. And I've never read the Torah, but know they're books from God, and the Quran was sent down as the last book to correct every mistake that everyone else basically misconstructed about those books. They were brought from God, but over time they were corrupted. Not the pages in them, how people interpreted it. So, the Quran was brought to correct everything else, and so was Muhammad, peace be upon him. And what was the question you said, the first one? Well, have question for you. So, in what ways does the Quran correct or confirm the things that you're saying were Confirm the day of judgment, and believe there are other things, but don't want to get my words little jumbled up or offend anyone because haven't read the Torah or the Bible in its completed like know they're books, but haven't don't want to get my words not misinterpreted, but don't want to misuse my words if I'm not correct on something, and have no business speaking on it. you think it's unfair to make claim that you haven't read the Bible nor the Torah, but then consider them as corrupt scriptures when these scriptures have been out for centuries BC, right? Before Christ, they have been passed down, written down. You're telling me throughout all those years that there have been practices of these scriptures Allah, your God, basically allowed all these people to be deceived into thinking that these things are right when the whole time they are wrong? mean, when the whole time that they're wrong? When did it start that it was confirmed, what date or what historical time was it confirmed that these scriptures that have that are historical documents for that for all that that these historical documents are contradiction or need to get corrected? So, Allah did not make the people corrupt the pages, they did that themselves. No, didn't say that. said I'm saying like basically how how is it that he allows this to happen for so long because the when when did this idea come out that they've been corrupted? When did it come out? Well, I'm not sure when the year came out, but do know that, you know, it's in human nature. There is Quran verse that says, you know, human beings will be human beings, and God does not God does have power over us, but we do have power over ourselves. It's just like how we are. So, these things Allah did not allow people to just just corrupt these books. They did it themselves. It is in the Quran mentioned nice and clear that the Quran the Quran speaks for itself that it was preserved according to Muslims. So, the Quran is intact, it has been preserved and flawless according to Muslims. The the Quran says that the core message within the Bible, within the Old Testament has not been corrupted. The the core message of it that kind of invite the people to the God of Abraham, to the to Jesus Christ that's mentioned 18 times in the Quran. Moses that's mentioned 19 times in the Quran. There's invitation for these core messages. But because there are so many authors in the New Testament, and there's one author whether non-Muslim believe he is he has been the Quran has been revealed to him or he wrote it himself. There's one author. So, this is lack of consistency. Muslims see it, and there's there's room for corruption there because this lack of consistency and multiple authors. That's how Muslims see it. That's an interesting answer, and get that answer often when I'm speaking with Muslims about whether or not the Quran confirms or corrects the previous scripture. But when actually read the Quran, it says the exact opposite of the answers that get from ladies such as yourself. mean, 1094 Muhammad, if you are in doubt about what Allah has revealed to you what did Allah reveal to Muhammad? The Quran. If you're in doubt about what Allah has revealed, go and ask the people who have been reading the scripture before you. If you doubt the Quran, you're supposed to go and check the previous scripture scripture according to Allah. You have 381 where Allah is telling the prophets that there's messenger coming after them that's going to confirm all that Allah has given them of the scripture and of the hikmah, right? And so, you have over and over again. mean, there's verse after verse, chapter two, chapter five, full of verses about how Muhammad and Muslims are supposed to go back to the previous scripture because the Quran is supposed to come in line with it confirming what was before, not contradicting it. So, then when we see that the Quran contradicts the previous scripture, the answer that get is that well, it came to correct it. Nowhere in the Quran or Hadith is the Quran correction over the previous scripture. In fact, it's the other way around. But let's talk about one example. Okay. For example, the story of Lot in in the Bible, when you read the story of Lot, it says that Lot's daughters got him drunk, and then slept with him. The this story, when you read the same story in the in the Quran, it's completely different story. It doesn't say anything about the daughters getting the father drunk and sleeping. We consider Lot to be prophet, and that kind of that kind of behavior is would would make him an abuser. Would make him sexual, you know, abuser. Make the make the the daughters rapists. Yeah, he'd be victim in this case. Yeah, he would be victim. He in the Christian you know, in the biblical version, he is he is the he's the victim for sure. But in the Quranic version, that story is corrected, and that doesn't happen. They they they exit the town that they were in, but there is no there are there are no that kind of story doesn't happen. So, again, yeah, that's you telling me that the Quran tells the story differently, so it's correction where the Quran says the exact opposite that it's confirming. So, when you does confirm lots of things, and the Quran also corrects lots of things. statement that says the Quran came to correct the Bible or the Torah? Before we go on, just to your your comment or question was if two two two two things to answer. Not everyone can interpret the Quran, and not everyone can read and understand particular verse out of context. This is very hard. Even Muslims, we can't do that. We have to refer to exegesis and corrupts and books that explain to us why this was given at this time. So, taking one verse out of context to justify that the Quran corrects or doesn't correct, don't think it is reliable thing to say with all the respect. So, therefore, in to understand, you have it's it's it's not simple thing to understand where's that verse coming from and what it aimed to do. So, in terms of correction, like said before, the core message of the Quran agrees on. There's line, there's something Jesus is prophet, Moses is prophet. we believe in 125 prophets. There's the core message as Muslims, we believe it is there in the Torah and the New Testament, but we believe the little things because of non-consistency and multiple authors, there are lot of room to be corrupted. Interesting, but do think it's unfair to characterize me as saying that Not you. Just the idea of interpreting Right, but that just grabbed one verse. Yes, she There's multitude of verses that talk about the Quran confirming the previous scripture, and there aren't any verses that say that the Quran corrects the previous verses. So, So, have to step in. have to step in and continue the conversation here because we are talking about this, and this also does happen with Christians as well. So, want to hear from the Christians in the sense that many people do say that the Bible has been changed, it's been corrupted over time. How do you respond to that? And I'm also going to give you an example. I'm just going to tie these two questions together. sometimes different books in the Bible provide conflicting details for the same stories. For example, in 2 Samuel 10:18, it states that David's forces killed 700 charioteers, while in 1 Chronicles 19:18, it gives the number as 7,000. So, how do you explain that? Things like these can sometimes be reason for people to make that comment. What would your response to that be? So, my response would be did some research on that 1 Samuel and Chronicles passage, and from what was able to gather from scholars, it was either scribal error between the 700 and 7,000, or contextually it could have been talking about 700 horsemen versus the amount of people slaughtered in the entire battle. So, 700 horsemen killed, but if you want the total number, 7,000 people were killed in the battle. As far as the validity of the scriptures, think we have to ask what the documentation of the scriptures are. We know that between the 1st and 15th century, we had over 24,000 cumulative manuscript evidence of the scriptures that were being written. And we also know that people were documenting what was happening in the New Testament. We have Tacitus, we have Lucian the satirist who was even making fun of the Christians because he was saying they worship king that died on cross. And so, even the extra-biblical evidence, which means the the text outside of the Bible, the historians at the time, the the comedians at the time, the people who were influential in society were writing about the Christians and the Christian God. And don't know that Islam has that same documentation. And to add on, when she said that, you know, that it it could be like copyist error, things like that. That still doesn't sit here. mean, the Bible has contradiction. No, we cannot admit that people were writing things down. And when things are written down, there can be an error. But that does not take away from the message that many many were were killed or the amount in that in the in that like it doesn't take away from the fact that there was large amount. You know, the message of the gospel isn't changed. Nothing very important to us, our our salvation, is changed. And the beautiful thing about this Christian history is that we have textual critics. So we have people who are historians, people who are scholars, who do this, come together, right, and look at the manuscripts side by side, many of them, and come together to be able to correct what is it that may have been overlooked or may have been an error because of the way that it was written. What you said is just aligns exactly with what said in different terms. The core message is intact. The core message is intact. What's been what Muslims believe has been corrupted is those little details. But you said it, said it, we said it the same way. Interesting though, because are you saying that textual variants equals corruption? Because think that even sister Khadija over here, she said that she believes the previous scriptures have been corrupted when we're talking earlier. And it's stuff like textual variants or even maybe canonization that leads to this conclusion. And just find that interesting because there are, you know, textual variants in the Quran. There's different Qurans and they have variants between them. Can add to that? So want to steer clear of the word corruption because do think it has such strong negative connotation. And do agree with you that repeatedly throughout the Quran it says it's confirming previous scriptures because as has been repeated, it's the core message. So the way to metaphorically describe it is think see it as the Quran came to just steer people back to the main path because over the years, not necessarily just the text, but people's interpretations. mean, every religious group knows about gatekeeping and people misinterpreting things for their own hidden agendas. It happens in every religious groups. So our belief is that the Quran came to reinforce what was already revealed. And going back to what you said earlier about how there are verses where Muhammad is being told, go back to the old scripture, it's because the Quran was revealed over period of time. So in that moment when they were facing an incident, the revelation hadn't come yet to answer that question. So he was told, go back to the previous scripture for now because they have the same core message and we'll give you the answer later. So he was able to get that from the previous scripture until the revelation came. But don't want to look at it as corruption cuz feel like all of these came from the same God with the same core message that we need to believe in him and do good on earth. Question in terms of the revelations. So do you think that there can be any further prophets or revelations after the Quran? So we believe that this is the final revelation and Muhammad was the final prophet. Thank you. Okay, we're going to go on to the next prompt. Hi loves, it's me again, Dr. Michelle Dab. 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So how the Trinity exemplifies this can be like in the quality of love because our Bible says that God is love. So you can agree that think we could all agree that shared love is greater than self-love. Love between two is greater than love within oneself. And even greater than that is cooperative love where you have shared love amongst many. So within the divine essence, we have the Father, the Son, and the Spirit sharing in cooperative love. And it's innate to their very nature of God, the divine essence. Whereas in more Unitarian view of God, in order to express the highest form of love, he'd have to depend on creation or something outside of himself. Anyone else want to speak to that? But ladies on this side, do you think that the Trinity is equivalent to polytheism? I'd have to ask how you define it because I've had Christian friends who say, "No, Trinity is concept of just one God, but like different essences of God." And then I've had Christian friends who are like, "No, it's strictly God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit." So feel like depending on how it's defined with who I'm talking to, would be able to answer that question. feel like the Christian perspective The Christian perspective of the Godhead is that there is one God with three persons. So he's manifested in three persons, but they all share one divine nature. Now, think that that's not the that's not an view for all Christians. don't think all Christians Yeah, don't agree with the Trinity. But Christians who hold to core doctrine agree on the doctrine of the So to answer your question about who would be those heretical Christians, people who misinterpret the scriptures and we would consider them as the Unitarians. And they would also be self-proclaimed in saying, "Yes, am Unitarian, oneness." Those type of people that don't understand the fullness of the Trinity. So yes, there will be people that go the other way and think that this is the understanding of God, but clearly they haven't fully understood or read the scriptures in its entirety from the Old Testament to the New Testament to come to the final conclusion of the triune God. And going back to what you said, agree with you. do believe that depending on what Christian you speak to, it's hard to determine if it's poly poly Okay, can you please say the word? Polytheism. Okay, was about to say polythetics. Polythetics. Okay, so yes, depending on what Christian it could have you thinking, "Okay, so is this, you know, the is this monotheistic?" And yes, the triune true definition of it being one God, being, and then three distinct persons. That is the word that would use in comparison to other Christians. wouldn't even go to say the word essence. So don't know who like may have told you that, but it's not essence. It's three distinct persons. And persons represents who? So if you come to me, you say, "Hey, what God do you serve?" Right? would say, serve Yahweh." okay. And who is Yahweh? the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So that's what it is. It's one. And we can prove this in many other scriptures, but I'll wait till that question question comes up. do think it's important to make that distinction that people who are Christian do hold certain belief, but there is like sect sector of people who maybe don't. And it is interesting when you ask them why, but would like to hear from Christians what biblical evidence supports the idea of the Trinity. would like to start off as well. If you don't mind, we could go Old Testament, New Testament. I'll start off with New Testament. Jesus Christ claims to be God. It is also taught by the apostles that Jesus is God with John 1:1, which is irrefutable. In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God. We have Philippians 2:6 where Paul himself, the apostle, said that Jesus is God. Though he was God, he did not think of equality, right? He humbled himself. So there he goes saying that Christ is God. We also see Jesus Christ in it of himself say in John chapter 8 that he is that am. Before Abraham was am. And that word am goes all the way back to the book of Exodus where God the Father himself said, am that am." So there goes that cross-reference. Then we have another verse, which is the last one I'm going to share in the Old Testament, which is also irrefutable. Isaiah 9:6. It was prophesied that on for onto us child is born, child. That means it's human being. child is born and son will proceed. He will be called mighty counselor and everlasting father and mighty God. think that's the most important part, right? He has these titles, but mighty God. Why would child get called mighty God? Maybe because this is prophecy that was soon to be revealed in the book of Luke that gets fulfilled when Christ comes and takes upon flesh. Thank you. Anyone want to respond to that? So think you're starting to you were talking about Christ Jesus Christ divine nature. Yes. You talked about his divine nature as well. And you referred to John John 10 think. John 10 is perfect example, but said John 1:1. No, you said John 10 Abraham before Abraham was am. Yeah, that's John 8. That's John 8. So happen to love that verse love is beautiful, but that particular verse is really beautiful and the the reason but wouldn't interpret it the way you've interpreted that he is God. would interpret it in the in the sense that you know, when you meet someone that you love and you you experience union with that person. There's no distinction between you and that person. When anyone has experienced love in deep way knows this. And so when he's saying before Abraham was am he's from from my point of view he's expressing deep union with with God. He's expressing his love for God that he's never he cannot even remember the point that he was separated from God. That's how deep his union is with God. So there's different ways of interpreting different verses. There are different ways of interpreting different verses. You interpret it as him saying that he's God. interpret it as him expressing love for God union union with God. And in in is it John think was talking about John 10 verse 5 I'm not sure. It's where he says Jesus says that do not do anything by myself. do it by the will of God. So that particular statement that's actually exactly what Muslim says. don't do anything by my own will submit to the will of God. That is the definition of Muslim. in the Quran about what Jesus said. can't do any of this without the will of God. Except no Muslim No Muslim would say that everything that God does they can do. That they do everything they see the father doing. So when you finish that verse right there Jesus is making divine claim. He says, do nothing without the father. Everything the father does do for the father shows me all that he does. So is that Islamic to believe that creature can do everything that the father can do? From mystical point of view, yes. From mystical point of view, you'd have to go to the Sufis who understand everything as there being more than one reality. If you're willing to go into the mystical aspect of religion, then there are many explanations for that. But that's not the orthodox view. Yeah. For example, there was Muslim Sufi called Al-Hallaj. He claimed that he was God. He said, know hack meaning am the truth. am the truth. He insisted on this. And this is we're talking the 8th century. The the Muslim king brought him to court killed him. And he still continued his body still continued. This is how the story goes. That his body still continued know hack know hack am the truth am the truth. And apparently the king cut him up into tiny little pieces and then he had whole chorus of each body part saying am the truth. So in that Muslim king interpreted Al-Hallaj's statement as blasphemy. You can't be God. You can't be the truth. You can't be love. You can only you can only submit to it. And he was punished. But this Al-Hallaj he was experiencing union with God. And for him there was no separation between him and God. There was not even small distance of you know of thread between him and God. He saw no distinction between that. So that's an mystical experience of God. And in that sense How's that not shirk though? Cuz there's that nice understanding thought. The king definitely thought that that was shirk. That was shirk and he was punished accordingly for that reason. But from mystical point of view this this man was in love with God. Why why would he experience any difference any separation from God? But no matter how much you love God wouldn't we want to be careful with what we say because there is separate distinction between us and God. We're created he's not. just think that goes kind of against don't know if any of you ladies would say that the way that he said that even though you love God, right? Yeah, would you say am law No, he he was on different path. He's Sufi. He's he's really related to the mystical side of Islam, but would like to bring two verses I'm going to paraphrase in the Quran. One of them says that that's just in relation to Trinity that the people said you're one of three. Did you say that? And Jesus says, never said that. That's in the Quran. It depends on how you interpret it, but that's verse from the Quran. Yeah, just wanted to say something to that. think even when you look at the Quran you probably wouldn't agree with this, but you even see some evidence of the Trinity in the Quran. Number one, you see Jesus being ascribed certain traits that only God can have like in Sarah 3 when it says that he resurrects the dead, he heals lepers, he makes the blind see, he brings clay birds to life. And then in Sarah 19 I've been looking into this particular chapter because think it's verses 16 through 19 and it's it's prophecy to Mary and it's saying that the spirit it says God's spirit and No, it's no not that it says God's spirit is going to be sent to Mary. It's going to manifest in person and this person she bows down to worship and he says don't worship me I'm just an apostle, but you're going to have pure boy. And so when look at that know different there's different interpretations. The word is ruach and the reason know that is because ruach is the same in Hebrew and it's literally saying God's spirit is going to be sent to Mary. He's going to manifest himself in person. So God's spirit is physically going to speak to Mary and tell her that Mary's going to have child and this child is going to be pure boy. So we have in that Sarah 19 in that passage you have God you have physical manifestation of God's spirit telling them that Mary's going to have child that's essentially sinless. So even in that text you can't read that and come away with this guess this clear understanding that you have because it even alludes to some type of Trinitarian aspect for the fact that you have all those elements. So ruach the word that you're talking about is the it's the what the name of Gabriel is. He is the spirit of God. That is the interpretation that we have. So he was the one who was sent to Mary to let her know that she is about to become pregnant with the word of God which is Jesus. If I'm correct can you correct me on this? think so there's another word that's used malak and think that's That means angel. Right. So that would be an angel. Some versions say malak, but in the Arabic it's it's ruach which is the same as it is in Hebrew which means God's spirit. For it to be Gabriel that's that's not spirit. That's an angel. That's messenger. That was his title though. So when you understand that's the thing like we're talking about different books so you have to understand that we're speaking from our years of understanding our scripture. So ruach is Gabriel and he is the spirit of God. He's like God's messenger. So he was the one that's being sent in this verse to Mary. So understand how you could see that as like concept of Trinity, but he's one of God's messengers. Angel malak is just the word angel that's used for all the angels, but Gabriel has special elevated status. So ruach means Gabriel is which is So just have to ask this last question before we wrap this prompt up. We had another episode and in the earlier episode we had all the Muslim women said that Christian Muslims Christians and Muslims worship the same God. So how does that align with the Trinity? So Muslims worship the the God of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob. So if if Christians worship the same God then we do and if they don't then we don't. The next prompt is Jesus' resurrection is true historical fact. Jesus' resurrection is historical fact. It's been documented with the 500 eyewitness accounts. We also have the guards that saw the angel roll the tomb away when Jesus resurrected from the dead. We also have again extra biblical resources where people are talking about the Christians worshipping resurrected king. And so there's just lot of buzz around the fact that Jesus got up from the dead and appeared to so many people. so think you have to do something with that. And also wanted to say know in the Quran that Jesus is referred to as Al-Masih. That's the only person in the Bible given that or in the Quran given that honorific title. So what do you do with the Messiah and what do you do with all the different Messianic prophecies from the Torah that was utilized to create the Quran? So let's go back to the prompt. So you answer that question and wanted to just ask this you did you want to ask that same question? Yeah, wanted to speak to that question as far as like resurrection evidence or speaking to that. For me the most compelling evidence you kind of touched on it is the empty tomb and it seems mundane, but when you actually look at the details surrounding it it becomes that more much more significant. So you you have to understand that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem and then buried in Jerusalem. And did little research. at the time was roughly about 290 acres. So, for context or to conceptualize that, I'm from Houston. So, if you've ever been to Houston and you've flown out of Hobby Airport, then you can fit like five Jerusalems in Hobby Airport. And this is small airport. So, you have to, guess, understand this is probably Jerusalem's probably the size of small neighborhood. And so, this is where he was killed and and buried. This is also where the Christianity essentially started. So, when you think about it in those terms, we know where he was buried. It's not an unmarked tomb. The Bible tells us he was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea's tomb. But, this is also the place where the disciples go and start preaching about resurrected king. It would make no sense for me to start in this super small town where somebody can just say, "Let's end this whole man's career. Roll the tomb back. Let's see that he's still in there." But, they didn't. They're preaching in this area and it adds credence to their message because, obviously, the Jewish leaders hated Jesus. They crucified him. They had lot of incentive to roll back the tomb. But, they didn't. They said things like, no, the disciples stole his body." So, the empty tomb is extremely compelling to me because if were going to be conspirator and create this whole thing like worship Jesus, I'm going to Africa because nobody's going to be able to fact-check me. But, I'm not going to stay in the place that he was resurrected and where his tomb is. So, following that, if Jesus really resurrected, then why didn't he show himself to everyone? The claim is that he revealed himself to over 500 people, but why not the Romans, the people who plotted to kill him? Everyone. Why didn't he make large public appearance before his his Why didn't he make large public appearance like he did before his death? Well, the Romans the Romans the Romans got evidence of Jesus's resurrection because they literally saw the angel roll the tomb away. and also, Jesus says in Matthew 12, he says, wicked and detestable generation ask for sign." Why does he say this? Because he spends almost the entirety of the Gospels giving people signs. He's healing people. He raises Lazarus from the dead. he's making the blind see. He heals the man at the pool of Bethesda. And still, it's not enough. And on top of it not being enough, when the miracles are happening, the Pharisees tell him that he's sorcerer. This is coming from somewhere else. And Jesus literally says to them, "Don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit." Why does he say that? Because it's by the spirit of God, by the Father, by himself that he's able to enact these miracles. So, the the reality is you have to do something with the fact that Jesus gave us plenty of signs. He gave us many miracles and people denied them. Just like in Luke when you brought up Lazarus, Jesus answers this question directly. So, I'll be really succinct, but just can't let it slide because Jesus answers this. When he's telling the story of the poor man Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man's in the tomb, he's speaking to Abraham. "Abraham, just please go. Let Lazarus tell my brothers, my family that, you know, that you're real so that they don't have to experience this torment." And Abraham says to him, "Man, Moses and the prophets. So, they wouldn't believe even if Lazarus rose from the dead." That's Jesus saying, "Even if they saw me, they would not believe." agree. Like, even to share in simplistic critical thinking way, like God can come down right now and show himself. And we all know that there's going to be people that will blaspheme him, call him the same things that the Pharisees called him, "You are demon." And they will deny him. So, to make such claim like, why wouldn't he do it?" God has foreknowledge. He knows himself and he has certain plan. He knows himself these people wouldn't even believe. These people the Pharisees, right? And there's modern-day Pharisees to this day. Blasphemers. People that deny God. They like these people literally walked with the most high God and even confessed it. They was going to stone him in the book of John because he blasphemed. They said out their own mouth, "We're going to stone you because you're blaspheming." In order to blaspheme is because you're claiming to be God. This man is showing you, am God." And you want to stone him for it? So, imagine if he did, it wouldn't make difference. This is why even with Pharaoh, right? God revealed himself many times to Pharaoh, but the Pharaoh's heart and heart ever change? No, it didn't. So, that type of claim that people make is very illogical. Going back to the question, is there historical evidence, not theological? Is there such thing? Yeah, we just mentioned all historical evidence and also Josephus is How can historian find proof for supernatural events? Eyewitness accounts. So, it's funny because in 1 Corinthians 15, the first eight verses is actually creed. And it's list with all of the eyewitnesses, their names and like who they were, who witnessed the resurrected Christ. And this creed was passed around in the early 1st century. I'm talking within three years of Pentecost. Scholars, the latest they'll date it is like 40 to 45 AD, but it's very early creed that was passed amongst the early church of these eyewitnesses that saw the risen Christ. mean, you know, when we're talking about verifying miracle, it's eyewitness accounts that are going to verify anything that happens in history. We're not going to use the scientific method. It's history. So, people are seeing this, people are saying this, and people are documenting this. It's as true as anything else that happens in history. Yeah, but now we're going beyond scripture, though. No, we're Well, she asked for historical evidence. That's That's the prompt ask for historical evidence. Eyewitness accounts. And even the apostles had students that followed them. So, John had, think, Hippolytus is how you pronounce his name, who followed him and wrote and documented about Jesus John's experiences with Jesus. So, want to hear from you ladies. What do you believe happened at the end of Jesus's life? Well, it says very clearly in the Quran that Jesus wasn't crucified. He was taken up. He was He ascended to God instantly. God loved him so much, he would not let him be hurt at all. So, he just simply ascended. And that's it's it's just one line, think, in the Quran. One or two lines in the Quran. Do you believe that Jesus is going to return? Yes. And to achieve what, exactly? Justice. It's sign of the end times, too. Like, he comes back to take full circle. This is Okay. Is there anything else you wanted to add to this particular topic? I'm fascinated by this because even though, like you said, the verse is clear that he was taken up, what happened on the cross? Like, was he swapped out for someone else? Was it an illusion? Who did he get swapped out for? No, just the word in Arabic. He was swapped for with someone else. Was put on the cross instead of him. So, you believe he was swapped out and you believe he was crucified, but Yeah, have another interpretation of that verse that like the shubha, which means it was it like presented to them as if they had killed him, but they had not. Because he was crucified, but he was ascended to God. So, he didn't not die on the cross. So, he was crucified like he was in pain, beaten and tortured, but he did not die. His soul was already ascended to God at that point. But, the physical body was still on the cross or Yeah. Well, isn't that death, then? Death is your spirit there's two types of death according to Islam. There's the small death, which is what we all encounter when we're sleeping. But, then there's the final death, which is why he comes back. He comes back to have his final death. So, okay. So, he's like sleep. Yeah, he's in God's realm at the moment. Okay. That's fascinating. I've I've Yeah. The next prompt is Muhammad is final prophet of God. don't think that he was prophet of God because when look at guess the origin as to how he received his prophecy, it's concerning to me. know that he was in in cave and he was guess attacked. don't know the right word for it like by the angel or he was pressed by the angel and told to read something he said he couldn't read. and then he began to shake and think was it was it is it Khadija, his wife at the time, told him what was going on that he was prophet. And then there is point in which that he became like suicidal to where he was trying to throw himself off of mountain. And that just doesn't accord with someone receiving message from God. whenever think about prophets in scripture, they're not attacked or they don't have this this reaction that makes them like, guess, suicidal. And when think about someone being told to be thrown off of cliff, if you will, think about Matthew 4. It's one of my favorite chapters in the whole Bible and it's Jesus Christ's temptation and he's talking to Satan. And Satan is the one telling him to jump off of the cliff. So, it doesn't really accord with someone who had an encounter with God, it it seems it's it seems way more sinister to me. It seems way more dark than someone who who was prophet of God. But, do you remember Moses's encounter with God? Yes, do. He was terrified, was he not? He was terrified, but his life wasn't threatened. And then he was comforted. terrified was running away. He was running away. And God said, "Come. No, Take your shoes off. Walk here." No, so the account in scripture said it's in Exodus and he sees burning bush and he literally says, "Now, will literally turn aside to see why this bush is not consumed." He turned aside and he begins to have conversation with God and he tells him to take your shoes off. "Run on holy ground." There's nothing in that text that says that he was terrified or scared or wanted to jump off of mountain. afraid. think awe is better word. He was in awe of what was happening, but it did not terrify him or make him run away from the presence of God. It actually drew him into the presence of God because that's what God does. in comparison to Muhammad's encounter. have an answer of two parts. First part, we have to be very careful where we get our narration from because I've as as I've been Muslim for long time, I've never heard that suicidal incident ever. That's from the Hadiths. think it's either Sahih Muslim or Sahih al-Bukhari. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. It is in the Quran. 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It is in the have the same message. And often in this conversation we've had this running theme of core doctrine, right? The core doctrine of the Torah and the Injil, the Zabur, the character of God that it proclaims, the nature of God that it proclaims, God's plan for salvation, these are core tenets to our faith. And everything that just mentioned is diametrically opposed to the Quran. So this idea that this core message is carried on is false. mean, the the Quran is in direct opposition to the tenets of our faith. I'd have to disagree with that because every those three things you listed are noted in the Quran. They might be interpreted differently, but those concepts are there. So God is triune in the Quran? You didn't mention that. Well, said the nature of God. So we believe that he has triune nature and that it's taught throughout scripture. For instance, but it's evident in the Torah. Right. So like in Matthew 28:19, "Go out and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." You wouldn't say go out and perform salat in the name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibril. We do believe that John baptized Jesus. The The act of baptism is there. We do believe in that. We're talking about the religious right of baptism, doing it in the singular name of the Father, Son, and Spirit. You wouldn't be able to Islamically correct me if I'm wrong, but Islamically can you say, "I'm going to go out and perform salat in the name of Allah, Muhammad, and Jibril"? Muhammad is just messenger. He's nothing more, just human messenger. No, we wouldn't say that. No one would say that. Our declaration of faith coincides with believing in one God and we believe that Muhammad is the final messenger. But it matters who that one God is, right? So like if have statue and I'm like, "This is the one God who serve," you wouldn't say I'm Muslim because that idea of God or that concept of God doesn't match the Quran. You know, Christians what I'm hearing is very clear idea of of God, very you know, very clear interpretation of God. But from the Muslim perspective, at least from my perspective, the idea that could ever understand God is far beyond me. It's far beyond me. can barely understand my cat at home when she you know, when she's asking for meal, when she wants to be pet. That's that's that's where my level is. Well, that's where my intellectual level is. can barely understand her. So for me to understand completely higher being, don't even expect that from myself. And you know, to understand momentarily, expect that from myself. But momentarily might have an experience of God, but to understand exactly what his nature is, this is beyond what most Muslims would consider themselves capable of. The scriptures have revealed who God is. So it's not that we're trying to intellectualize God or conceptualize him. It's that he's revealed himself. He's revealed himself in our text, John 1:1 like she said, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." So we're not doing guesswork here. We believe that our text is clear and that's why we're able to give clear response to it. Yeah, that's it. And it's the same for us, too, because throughout the Quran there are various names and attributes of God that are described to give us sense of who his nature is. It's just not the Trinity. But going back to saying like how with what you were saying earlier is like we do have this essence of understanding God's nature. We do have the concept of salvation which is like repenting from sin. Right. So, it differs, but think what we're trying to say is that we have different ways of practicing, but the core concept is the same. But that's the confusing thing. Like for instance, think it's 112:3. Allah does not beget nor is he begotten, right? So, Allah is not father. You can only come to him as servant. You can't come to him in father-son relationship. Throughout our scripture, God is our father, our loving father. John 3:16, he gave his only begotten son. So, when we're talking about this idea of this core message that we share, see Quran that's completely disjointed from the message of the previous prophets. But doesn't all of them doesn't Peter refer to Jesus as servant of God? It being servant of God is wonderful, and completely agree that Jesus serves the Father. However, he is his begotten son. So, that That would be like if you were out and you see your kids see you somewhere and they say, this is my friend." My mom's name, you know, "This is my friend." You Jesus isn't just prophet. He's the son of God. He is God. So, when you're you know, characterizing him as something less than he is, that's taking away from the very tenant of our salvation, our faith. want to go back to something we talked about earlier. When we were talking about the resurrection and how you ladies said that you did not believe that that Jesus died and was resurrected. That's one of the core foundations of the Christian faith for so many important reasons. In your faith, how would you be saved from sin? Repentance is repeated throughout the Quran. So, we we believe that people are obviously infallible or fallible. They are able to commit sin, but repeatedly God says, am the most forgiving, the most merciful. So, ask for forgiveness, repent, and make amends." And plus in the Quran, sorry. In the Quran, there is Correct me if I'm wrong, if my Arabic is terrible. Istighfar? Istighfar. Yeah, istighfar. There is like that go always going to Allah, seeking forgiveness. And you know, like unknowingly we can sin, and knowingly we can sin. It's just about the intention we have. Like always going back to Allah. And that's like the main point of our religion, correct? It's like going always going back to Allah. So, istighfar is of three levels in Islam. You admit your sin. You ask for forgiveness, and you don't do it again. They have to go all together. So, if someone does sin repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, this is not very well-constructed istighfar or repentance in Islam. So, would like one of you ladies to answer this question cuz haven't heard lot from the two of you. As Christian, how how do you get saved from sin? And tying in with what she talked about repeating sin over and over and over, if someone was doing that, how how would you get that ultimate salvation? What is that process? So, in the Christian view, we we see that without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. And this is concept that was introduced in the Old Testament. you see in the book of Exodus, you see this very unique concept of the Passover where they take lamb and they say, "You know what? This plague of death is passing through Egypt, and all of us are under the penalty of this this death plague. And the only thing that's going to save us is if we take this lamb that's without blemish, male lamb, 1 year's old, don't break any of his bones, kill it, and then take the blood and put it on the doorpost of your homes. And whether you are pagan or whatever Isaiah mean, Exodus 48 talks about even strangers being able to partake in this thing, then you will be saved. And so, that system is still in place. And what happens is in the New Testament, you see the ultimate lamb who is Jesus Christ. That's why another name for Jesus Christ is the lamb of God. And you see the same similarity. So, you see that he died, he shed his blood on the cross. He's considered to be the lamb of God. You see the significance where his bones wasn't broken. When the lamb in the Old Testament was without blemish, Jesus Christ is without sin. And so, he makes atonement for the the sins of humanity, those that come to him. So, that's the that's the answer to the question. And would just want to know from you guys, do any of you guys know for sure that you're going to heaven? No. Absolutely not. No. And that's the key. really hope so. No, do hope so, too. That's the distinction because because we have accepted Jesus Christ, we know that our sins have been atoned for, and we have confidence. It's not cockiness, but it's an assurance that when we die and leave this earth, we will be with God. And so, that's why know like there's always this conversation. Not that there's anything wrong with it to try to say like it's similarity, but it's such dividing line between the core truths. Like how are we saved? how are we You guys all said that you don't know if you're going to heaven. Everyone of us here with that, by the way. Like again, to mirror what you just said, it's not out of cockiness, but it's it's out of understanding my God and my faith. From all the verses that I've read and grown up with, can't see Like remember having this conversation with my mom, and it's like, "Well, who ends up going to hell?" And she's like, "Whoever really wants to." Because of all the verses in the Quran, all it repeats is that if you repent and you do good and you believe in God, you're going to heaven. So, it's not like, yeah, I'm totally convinced, I'm totally saved, and everything's fine." But there is this level of conviction in my heart that know my God, and know my practice, and know his mercy. don't feel like I'm It's not like I'm living the easy life and don't have to practice or do anything in my faith. have to do what have to do, but do have that conviction in God's mercy and forgiveness. out of four of you? said that I'm not Sorry, talked over you. But said I'm not sure if I'm going to heaven is because that anxiety, like want to be good Muslim, serve my God, and do good in my ummah, but also it's that like get like verses in the Quran saying like don't Let's say let's say what is it? Like my jewelry. This Would this be considered like tabaruj? Like would it be? No. Tabaruj, like Some would say some won't. You know. Yeah, some would say it is, some would say it isn't. don't know what Allah would say, and that what scares me. But there is verse that when you say you don't didn't agree and that everyone will like you will go to heaven, there's this verse that my Quran teacher sent to me, sura 21 ayat 101, that like if you believe and you know, you take your shahada, the soul of believer will not even taste the or hear like the sound of hell or something like that. I'm just paraphrasing, but that gives me comfort, but also in this dunya, it's very easy to get caught up in like the like the temptations Yeah, temptations. You don't have the You don't have the assurance. No, but in Islam, there's only one one unforgivable sin, and that is ascribing partners. And everything else is forgivable. So, for Correct me if I'm wrong, believe it was in the Quran, but Muhammad didn't even know that he was going to heaven. No. He didn't. And so, where do you Again, it's not this like I'm 100% sure, but it's this conviction of know I'm on the straight path. know believe in my God. know what know of my God and scripture. Why would be going to hell? But why can't you say yes? Why can't you say like know for sure I'm going to heaven. So, will see you there. do believe it. There is sai. Sai is hard work towards something. Human being are responsible for that. They're not responsible for the consequence of it. So, Allah says, "Do your prayers, do your fasting, do do all this list. And if you do it right, you will end up in the right place in the hereafter." So, am not don't work to get there, but do what Allah asked me. Whatever he wants to put me is Allah's. So, it is not about goal that worship Allah for this goal. worship Allah because he is worthy of worship, and do my taklif. do my journey the way should do it according to Allah. But at the end, it's inshallah. Like if you Inshallah. Of course. But even the best example, the your prophet who you consider to be the best example, he wasn't even sure. mean, there's lot of debate about that. Yeah, it's not that he wasn't sure. It's like we're saying that like he's not going to tell you all you're all going into heaven cuz then nobody would be doing it. Yeah, it's sense It's not It's like sense of humility of we are all still mortals, we are all still creations of God. We are sinful. We were made to worship him, and yes, we have faults. So, we shouldn't just get cocky about it. Right. And also, think it's just difference of opinion cuz like you ladies said like you're sure, but I'm not sure cuz always think, "Am doing my prayers right? Am doing enough like tasbih? Am doing enough for my community? Am doing enough to give to charity? Am doing enough?" That's just me, and just speak for me cuz am enough? That's just the It just brings like have so much sympathy hearing that because in Christ Jesus, you don't have to worry about that. All you have to do is instill faith in the one true living God, Jesus Christ, the triune God, and you shall be saved. As matter of fact, let me quote it. Romans 10:9 says, "Believe in your heart, confess with your tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord, and you shall be saved." And then as you continue to abide in him, he will do the work in you. So, us Christians, you wouldn't be like, "Am praying right? Or am this? Or am that?" Because we know as we as we abide in him, we know that there's going to be transformational work. The word of God promises us that we will be conformed into his image. Galatians 2:20 says that it is no longer who lives, but Christ lives in me. We also have the Holy Spirit instilled in us. The Holy Spirit works with us as we continue to abide with God. So, it's just like for me, just sympathize for you hearing that cuz it's like that's something you would never experience in Christianity cuz we know that Christ Jesus is doing the work with us as we abide. And we wouldn't get judged based off our works because the Bible actually says that that's not how you get saved. It's not by your works, it's by God's grace and mercy and by you instilling faith in Jesus Christ. The final prompt is, have questioned my faith at times. just want to say like as far as the prompt is concerned, I'm I'm need guess clarification because I've never questioned if Jesus is God. I've never questioned if God is who he says he is, but I've questioned the journey that I'm on in the sense that like God, why are you not doing this fast enough? And you know, in that regard, I've had my struggles with not submitting to God in the way that he wants me to. But as far as like just questioning if God is good or if God is who he says he is, would say no. So, just was saying that cuz did I'm on the same page with you. Yeah, we're We need little more nuance. So, wait, let's bring it back. So, the question is, have questioned my faith at times. think it's also referring to my am practicing the correct faith? Am doing what should be doing? Am on the right path? That's more what the question is aligning with. So, can say something to that. was raised as Christian in Maronite boarding school in Lebanon for 18-19 years. And questioned my faith then. did question to for to for two main point. was being told over and over again that I'm born sinful and it was such heavy load to carry. Like I'm little girl by myself in boarding school with no parents around. And I'm like, feel why am sinful? What have done? So, that was instilled in my mind. The other aspect that made me doubt is the gendered God. Like, why is God male? Why is he father? Why is he is not mother? All these questions made me doubt. Like, was really in agony. Like, who am as woman growing up? don't have role in this. Why is God male? So, those things made me doubt my faith and that's why chose later on Islam to take as spiritual journey for myself. Wonderful. And it has has worked since then. want to respond to what you said actually with the first part. And actually don't agree with that with the way that they say that you are born sinner. No, you're not. You're born innocent, pure, made in the image of God. While many may disagree with that and that's on their interpretation of scriptures like to throw around, that is not how God created us to be. We're innocent, pure, and made in his image. Jesus Christ himself said, "Be innocent as children and be wise as serpents." The Lord Jesus Christ himself said innocent. Now, the way that people misinterpret scriptures, can't sit here and you know, like can't apologize on their behalf, but that's not me personally as devout Christian, evangelical, do not believe in that. do believe though that as we are in fallen world, Romans chapter 5 says that the world through through Adam, the world is corrupted, right? In this corrupted world, the presence of sin can't be gone. So, the way that you interact with what's being presented to you is what ultimately taints you. Not that you're born that way. You weren't born that way. So, don't know who told you that and I'm sorry that he told you that. But we're in fallen world and the way that you interact with this world is what will ultimately build you to be who you are. So, in Christianity, human being are born pure? Yes. You're born pure, but you have the inclination to sin. So, there is distinction. So, and I'm sorry if this distinction wasn't made to you, but you're not born guilty of anyone else's sin. So, in that sense, you're innocent. In the sense of having sinful nature, an inclination to do something sinful, that's obvious. mean, even when you see children, you don't have to tell them to take cookie. They're going to take it. That's the inclination to sin. Isn't this across both our faith, the inclination to sin? Absolutely. That's that's definitely bridge. We're all definitely born pure with an ability to sin. Exactly. Thank you. That's my point. What about the gendered What about it? Do you think that on your side there's not that Allah doesn't have gender? No. Allah is beyond gender. he's not masculine. No. Well, God said, "Let us make them in in our mankind." So, yes, God refers to himself as him, but the fact that he made both male and female in his image shows us that God possessed both male male and feminine attributes. I'm not going to go as far as to say God is woman. don't believe that. But believe he possessed that attribute to create both men and women. Even in Ezekiel, believe it refers to God as like, "He's like mother bear protecting his cubs." So, we have some of that language in the text that think is inclusive enough, but it's not necessarily our place to question how God chooses to identify himself. And then even you've mentioned growing up in the Maronite faith and you said you wonder where your place is as woman, but you have, you know, the Virgin Mary, who you know, who who that we highly respect But why does that bother you? Why did it bother you as child that that God was man? I'm just curious. felt felt not included. felt excluded. It's man's world, man's God. The priests are men. The men in the the males are in charge within the church. So, it just felt very alienating as female. And it's not the same in Islam that, you know, the imams and the No. No. No? No. Okay. Anybody else have ever questioned their faith at any time in their lives? I've questioned myself. Just am worthy to be in God's graces? That's it. But love Islam. love my religion. It's just more of inner thing with me. And where do you get your comfort with those questions that you have? always message my Quran teacher. She lives in Egypt and she's always sending me like Quran verses about like, "You know, you're believer. You're going to heaven." And you know, like you're doing the work. You're putting in the work. Like, stop overthinking. You're human. Sorry. God has you in his hands and don't worry about anything else. Have you ever just questioned if you were practicing the correct religion? For me, yes. You've questioned that? no. So, know this is the right religion for me. I've never questioned if shouldn't be practicing it. Mhm. Okay. love the way you said that. love the way you said that. It's the right religion for you. Yeah. Can ask believer in what though? Because when we began the conversation, we were talking about jihad and some of the verses like Surah 149:7 that talks about slicing the throats of those who don't believe in Allah. What do we need to believe in to get into heaven? Because if you're not even able to communicate confidence about you getting to heaven as Muslim who's practicing all of these things, then how can you guys say that the non-believer gets to heaven, too? don't understand Well, it was the verse that quoted to you at the very beginning, 2:62. Where God is saying, "If you believe in God, you believe in the day of judgment, and you do good on this earth, there is no fear." do you guys practice Islam then? What's the point if it's not in God and you have to do good. That's part of our faith. 2:62. It's talking about converts. think it's very clear because like we spoke of earlier, you have to believe in Allah in the last day. And how do you reconcile that with verses like 3:85 where it says, "Those who seek another religion other than Islam will not be accepted and they'll be losers in the hereafter." Or have repeated verses where God says like, "We will call them according to their books." As long as you believe in God, you believe in the day of judgment, and you do good. You have to be good person, which is kind of going back to what we're saying earlier about why we strive and why we do our practices to support our conviction of the hereafter. We have we are driven by the good deeds because that is tenant of our faith. So, Donia, do you believe Christians will go to heaven? do. Do you guys believe that Christians Yes, we do. The the Christians who are following their book, they do. The 185 times Allah addresses the believers in the Quran. He never addresses all Muslims, ever. It's all believers. Believers in It's an overarching that includes any believer in the God of Abraham. It's not Muslims. So, when the verse says believers or Muslims, the word Muslim, the root of it is submission to God. By the word Muslim, the book does not mean Muslim who prays and fasts. He means anybody who submits to God. But it matters what God you're submitting to. For us, we believe it's all one God. Okay. Earlier when said the Torah and the Bible were corrupt, misused my words and apologize if offended any of you. Thank you. today what take take take back with me is that think it's really important to read all three of the scriptures because for me as student of you know, comparative scriptures, there is so much to be gained from reading the you know, the Torah and the New Testament and the Quran together. Lots of patterns we miss if we just read one of the books. So, whether we're Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, or whatever faith, it really does pay to read. Thank you. Like what what learned through my work, I'm PhD student as well. We are human being before we are Muslims or Christians. So, to bond on that level as human beings, it's very important. Therefore, this kind of debate, other debates, reading about other faiths faith is really really important for our spiritual growth. Thank you. agree. appreciate the ability to do this and think what was impressed upon my heart the most is just the conversation about confidence in your salvation. That's that's what kind of breaks my heart. know there was like different understandings like, "Well, have confidence or don't want to be arrogant." But would just hope, guess in perfect world, that people can know Christ and in knowing him would know, know without doubt that I'm going to heaven." Thank you. Yeah, would agree that really shook me little bit, too. would want you guys to know that you can be confident in someone. You can be confident in person and that person is Jesus Christ. think Well, feel the exact same way that they do. That was heavy on my heart, but think what take away from this conversation is that see when we're talking about this idea of core doctrine that we share, see in your faces and when speak to you guys, that there is desire to have that common ground. And that the intention behind it is pure, but then feel like when we dive deep into it and dissect it, we see these differences that we just we can't ignore. That we don't serve the same God and but see this this sincere desire to like bridge this gap and just say, you know, the best way to bridge it is to keep digging and would love to see all of you come to Christ and hope you don't take any offense to that. Yeah. Thank you. don't know what to say. this is like very put on the spot type question, but do want to acknowledge everybody for being very calm, cool, collective while speaking to one another. do appreciate that. also appreciate that you guys are both to share your point of views despite you having differences because know that in this in the Islamic community, that is something that can definitely create conflict and have issues arise, but see that you guys handle each other very well and love to see that. just hope the same thing hope that this principle continues to be applied when it comes to looking at Christianity that the same way that you would love for us to read in context when it comes to the Hadith or in the Quran, it's the same thing with John or any other book cuz want to go back to you. You told me something about the book of John that was highly misinterpreted. didn't get to respond, not that want to, but it's just to say like, the same way you want to apply that principle when it comes to us reading the Quran, it should be the same way too when it's the Bible. So, yeah. Thank you. Okay, would say my takeaway is lot of appreciation. think appreciate the fact that there's so much conviction and love in your faith and appreciate that we have the same of our own. And think it's beautiful that we're learning how to bond on our differences. love conversations when there's no end goal of want you to come to my side or want you want me to come to your side. think there's lot of value in understanding that at the end, maybe we have core differences, but we're kind of after the same thing. We all want to love God and be good people in our own different avenues to get there. And love that we were able to share that in some capacity today. Thank you. Yes, appreciate every single one of you being here and sharing. know it's difficult talking about your faith. You get passionate. It means so much to you and it's hard to talk about it and thank you for taking the time to come today and being vulnerable and sharing what your your thoughts are and do think that the Christian ladies have lot of love and with that love is why they're so passionate about wanting you to believe that you are saved. So, that is something that think is special. Thank you so much for being here and thank you for watching. Let us know in the comments what you think about this episode. Share your thoughts with us below and until next time. Bye-bye. That was so much fun. wasn't was nervous for nothing. You guys are so easy to talk to. for like 10 hours.